Josh wrote:You can usually spot them by an entire bookshelf of official-looking books and workbooks and binders full of cassette tapes.
ABC 123 wrote:The man was a genius salesman. He marketed a way (via his seminars) to get to God and a guaranteed way of having your life turn out, if only you'd do these 7 steps (or however many steps he said). Conversely, if your life was in any way disappointing it was because you didn't do it right.
Jesus is not the primary focus of his presentation, yet that is a subtle fact that many missed.
What you might not find on his followers' bookshelves (though reportedly it was available from the IBLP bookstore) is the book that Bill called one of the most influential books in his life: How I Raised Myself From Failure To Success In Selling
The salesmanship was so understated and masked by religious terminology that it was difficult to detect, but once recognized it became obvious that it was the foundation of everything in the organization.
steve-in-kville wrote:Not sure why, but Bill Gothard reminds of a suit & tie version of Denny Kennison.
Their messages were foundationally different, but they both spoke with an unflinching conviction and prophetic authority that moved hearts and minds, and ultimately they both were given more veneration and authority than was humanly healthy.
That being said, having sat under the teaching of both men (Gothard to a limited degree), I remain exponentially more appreciative of brother Denny's teaching than brother Bill's. If for no other reason than that Denny never commercialized what he was called to share like Bill did.
Ms. Izzie wrote:Gothard framed many human relationships in authority and submission. Whoever had the biggest umbrella was the winner and needed to be listened to because God had decreed it to be so. I have seen material in our circles with the same umbrella system pictured and also have heard sermons using umbrella language.
(If you don't know about the umbrellas, I don't think you are missing too much. Umbrellas aren't a very strong protection against the elements.)
Although submission is in the NT, it is often spoken of as a mutual submission, and isn't heavy on who has authority in the given relationship.
I recently heard someone teach men that authority in their home is good. He separated power from authority. Connected power to something ugly. Defined authority as the right to be listened to and earned by serving.
ragpicker wrote:I recently heard someone teach men that authority in their home is good. ...Defined authority as the right to be listened to and earned by serving.
Assuming responsibility is a big part of it also I would think.
Ms. Izzie wrote:Gothard framed many human relationships in authority and submission. Whoever had the biggest umbrella was the winner and needed to be listened to because God had decreed it to be so. I have seen material in our circles with the same umbrella system pictured and also have heard sermons using umbrella language.
(If you don't know about the umbrellas, I don't think you are missing too much. Umbrellas aren't a very strong protection against the elements.)
Although submission is in the NT, it is often spoken of as a mutual submission, and isn't heavy on who has authority in the given relationship.
As Joshuabgood suggested in another thread, the umbrella illustrations don't make any sense. The lower umbrellas aren't necessary. I guess they might be if it is to shelter from the wrath of the one above.
ohio jones wrote:
The salesmanship was so understated and masked by religious terminology that it was difficult to detect, but once recognized it became obvious that it was the foundation of everything in the organization.
ragpicker wrote:I recently heard someone teach men that authority in their home is good. ...Defined authority as the right to be listened to and earned by serving.
Assuming responsibility is a big part of it also I would think.
That was specifically addressed, I just didn’t bother mentioning it.
ragpicker wrote:I recently heard someone teach men that authority in their home is good. ...Defined authority as the right to be listened to and earned by serving.
Assuming responsibility is a big part of it also I would think.
That was specifically addressed, I just didn’t bother mentioning it.
Actually in a way you did. Serving is putting "assuming responsibility" in action.
I'm going out on a limb to mention one thing that I learned a decade ago from the Basic Seminar that has stuck with me and helped me see things more clearly.
He had a chart showing that outward sins are a manifestation of root problems going back to the Ultimate Root problem of rebelling against the Holy Spirit's conviction. I've heard so many sermons preached (especially to youth) on music, clothing, dating, and sports that it was eye-opening to me to look more closely at the issues and realize that love of the world, sensuality/lust, and idolatry were really the root problems.....which are caused by not submitting to the conviction of the Spirit.
I know a lot of people have been hurt deeply by his curriculum and by his actions, but I struggle with throwing everything out that he taught since I did learn and grow through some of his teachings that were from Scripture.
I followed this thread with interest. I first attended in the late 70's then again a couple times in the early 80's. I never got into the whole thing of having to attend every year or getting involved in the Advanced seminars. I know it was pushed in a big way by many.
Guess I could never get to the point of where I thought I could earn my way to salvation by following all his formulas for success.(and there were many) Some of the early years he might have had some good things to say. At least I received some benefit in some of my relationships. However, I didn't drink all the kool-aid and actually did some of my own studying of what the scriptures had to say which was much more beneficial. His take on various things was more than a little questionable quite often and I certainly questioned how he came up with some of his interpretations of scriptural issues.
In some of his final years he really kind of went off the rails in my estimation, when he started delving into the medical field and giving advice about eating a certain type of diet to get certain defined (by him) results. That really sat wrong with me, when he started trying to mettle with that, without a medical or dietitians license.
Some of the Advanced material was even more far fetched. Anyone remember the name Jim Sammonds. His health and wealth videos supporting Gothards ideas really turned me off. He spoke from a position of being a multi-millionaire with the idea that if you do things this way you too can be wealthy. It was little different than any of the self actualization tapes that I had listened to, just with twist of scripture added to try and give it more validity.
One of the best ideas he pushed was scripture memorization, not of just verses but whole passages.
When I think of Bill the phrase comes to mind "How have the mighty fallen". He would have been far better to heed the words from scripture "Humble yourself under the mighty hand of God, and He shall lift you up" I believe he quoted that often but I'm not sure he understood all that it meant.