Princeton Prof Eddie Glaude - on racial issues

[joshuabgood]

Okay, so what “social identity” do you want me to have?

You don’t want me to be colourblind. In fact you’ve said desiring to be or claiming to be is racist.

Now you’re saying I can’t have a “white” social identity either. So what should I “identify” as?

I didn't say "being colorblind" is racist. For the record...

[Grace]

I am saying "whiteness" as it has existed historically as western cultural phenomenon, is inherently racist. Surely that isn't controversial.

I think the point is that "whiteness" as a social identify, in the history of this society, means white supremacy.

When I fill out the census forms, I check the “white Caucasian” box, under "race".
When hubby gets background clearances for jobs he lists himself as "white".
If I am admitted into the hospital, they will list me as "white".

The society and culture we live in, identifies me as white and I did nothing to create that. It is equated as "racist or white supremacy"?????

As for MSNBC ……Even more biased than Fox.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSNBC_controversies

[barnhart]

Okay, so what “social identity” do you want me to have?

You don’t want me to be colourblind. In fact you’ve said desiring to be or claiming to be is racist.

Now you’re saying I can’t have a “white” social identity either. So what should I “identify” as?

As a small child growing up in the rural south with all its racial tensions, my father taught me "Just because you look white, don't mean you have to act that way..." Which is still very good advice all these years later.

White supremacy would have us believe "whiteness" is a physical reality for as long as people have existed. Of course this breaks down with any amount of scrutiny. The boundaries of whiteness in this country have always been in flux, groups move in as they gain status and wealth, assuming they are not black. I'm not convinced the idea of whiteness had any use until the 15 century or so, when Europeans began to colonize. Then it became a measure of which side of colonization you deserved to be on.

When handing out gospel tracts, I have been dismissed with, "Jesus wasn't white." The best answer I could come up with was, "Does that matter?", when it obviously mattered a great deal to him, since he brought it up. Since, I have settled on "I don't see how he could have been since whiteness wasn't invented until the 15 century." This goes to the root of what whitness as a social phenomenon really is.

[HondurasKeiser]

Well it might...=). I think the point is that "whiteness" as a social identify, in the history of this society, means white supremacy.

So, you’re saying that I’m a racist and a white supremacist merely by identifying as a white person?

I am saying "whiteness" as it has existed historically as western cultural phenomenon, is inherently racist. Surely that isn't controversial.

It surely is. 'Whiteness' is a tendentious and intentionally abstract idea that is only ever used in academia to assign blame, guilt and loathing. 'Whiteness' as a "western cultural phenomenon" springs forth not from a collective White hatred of the 'other' but rather from post-modern and critical race theory upon which literally any pathology or even cultural artifact can be projected and thusly blamed as the locus of minority failings, e.g. "Whiteness in Architecture". It fails to distinguish between different white ethnicities, make class distinctions among white people (and thus distinctions of privilege), and reads history in only one direction: i.e. Whites (oppressors) vs. Minorities (oppressed). It fails, historically, to makes sense of a supposedly racist majority, infected with a sense of racial supremacy, systematically and consistently dismantling institutionalized discrimination and expanding civil liberties to minority groups. It assigns to all whites everywhere a burden of guilt and self-loathing that they neither earned nor have any hope of ever expiating. The only thing we can ever do with our 'Whiteness' is hate it and "check it". Unfortunately that process is never-ending and ever-expanding because, as in architecture, logic, the arts and churches, our whiteness infects and permeates everything. I don't for a moment deny that racist persons of a white ethnicity or other have attempted to hold up the 'White Race' as the ideal over and against other minorities (the progressive eugenicists come to mind); I do however deny emphatically that the notion of "Whiteness' is anything other than a rhetorical tool used to bludgeon and critique the dominant culture, its artifacts and successes, as inherently racist.

Interesting that 'whiteness' is never bandied about as a hobby-horse by Asian-Americans...except perhaps by Sarah Jeong.

[appleman2006]

As a small child growing up in the rural south with all its racial tensions, my father taught me "Just because you look white, don't mean you have to act that way..." Which is still very good advice all these years later.

While I can appreciate what you father was trying to teach you I am not sure he went about it in the right way. Even if that was the way the majority of whites acted in your area towards blacks I am not sure it was proper to characterise it as a white problem only.
Think what would happen if any other race picked a prominent problem that race may have and said just because you look ______ does not mean to have to act ________. The point I am trying to make is that no one should have to worry about the colour of their skin everywhere. Their concern should simply be to try and live as Jesus did. Put yourself into the shoes of others and live accordingly.

Trying to treat people "special" and different even perhaps in a better way than you would a different race actually has ways of backfiring and causing resentment that can in turn just carry the problem on to future generations.

Case in point. Just last week I heard a radio show host challenge a white person as to when his colour had ever disadvantaged him. Another person called in and said "actually twice, both when he applied for a police and a fireman position in his city". He was not allowed even to apply as he was not the right colour. His "privilege" did not feel like privilege right then.
So as a Christian I could lay that aside and say I am glad for those other races that they are finally getting a fair shake. That is actually kind of how I look at it. But I do not see society as acting quite that maturely and I think until we get to the place where race truly becomes meaningless in our society we will continue to have race relationship problems.
I know some of you say I should stop eating fairy dust but hey I doubt that killing will ever be eradicated from our society either but who would say we should not try?

[ohio jones]

'Whiteness' as a "western cultural phenomenon" springs forth not from a collective White hatred of the 'other' but rather from post-modern and critical race theory upon which literally any pathology or even cultural artifact can be projected and thusly blamed as the locus of minority failings, e.g. "Whiteness in Architecture".

So ... are these buildings White?





(They were both designed by African-American architects; the original owner of the home in the upper picture was a female African-American self-made millionaire, perhaps the first. Their pigmentation and cultural context look White to me. I'm sure I'm to blame for them, somehow.)

[joshuabgood]

It surely is. 'Whiteness' is a tendentious and intentionally abstract idea that is only ever used in academia to assign blame, guilt and loathing. Whiteness' as a "western cultural phenomenon" springs forth not from a collective White hatred of the 'other' but rather from post-modern and critical race theory upon which literally any pathology or even cultural artifact can be projected and thusly blamed as the locus of minority failings, e.g. "Whiteness in Architecture".

"Whiteness," as Barnhart mentioned, is a new social construct historically speaking, around 500 years old, and emerged as a facet of Western European civilization to serve their political and economic ends. It provided justification for a "race based" slavery (unheard of in the ancient world), and also justification for colonization and genocide around the globe. Those things are historical facts. So I don't see it as a "blame guilt or loathing" but simply as a socially constructed idea propagated by Western Europeans that is a historical reality. I am not afraid of post-modernism or critical race theory insofar as they ably describe reality.

Further, "whiteness" is yet in our society the dominant culture, that is to say the culture of power. People that are outside of culture of power experienced de facto discrimination, or systemic discrimination. The righteous thing for the culture of power, and especially followers of Jesus, is to look for ways to welcome and include the outsiders. Don't just invite them to the party (step 1) but also invite them to dance (step 2).

' It fails to distinguish between different white ethnicities, make class distinctions among white people (and thus distinctions of privilege), and reads history in only one direction: i.e. Whites (oppressors) vs. Minorities (oppressed). It fails, historically, to makes sense of a supposedly racist majority, infected with a sense of racial supremacy, systematically and consistently dismantling institutionalized discrimination and expanding civil liberties to minority groups. It assigns to all whites everywhere a burden of guilt and self-loathing that they neither earned nor have any hope of ever expiating. The only thing we can ever do with our 'Whiteness' is hate it and "check it".

Of course there are variations with regard to "whiteness" and it isn't a "be all" term and to be sure there are isolated pockets/exceptions (with regard to ethnicity etc) which actually prove the rule/trend. Still we are discussing sociological patterns, and as such, this is a fair depiction of an empirical reality. Interestingly, whites often get upset by these "unfair generalities" when applied to their social group however, they/we frequently are quite comfortable talking about black incarceration rates, fornication rates, education outcomes, trash distribution proclivities, etc.

There is no need for unnecessary guilt. That said, thoughtful reflection on the white privilege we enjoy is good. And as whites in this society, we should look for ways to bring other folks to the party and include them in our "system." We ought to look for ways to go to bat for the ones on the margins. We should push back on systemic oppression. We should speak out loudly (peacefully) against the hero worship of past oppressors (confederate icons). (Instead we see the defense and utilization of these things quite commonly in Anabaptist circles. I have sited these already.)

Unfortunately that process is never-ending and ever-expanding because, as in architecture, logic, the arts and churches, our whiteness infects and permeates everything. I don't for a moment deny that racist persons of a white ethnicity or other have attempted to hold up the 'White Race' as the ideal over and against other minorities (the progressive eugenicists come to mind); I do however deny emphatically that the notion of "Whiteness' is anything other than a rhetorical tool used to bludgeon and critique the dominant culture, its artifacts and successes, as inherently racist.

Yes, our white culture does impact all aspects of our life. That isn't wrong in and of itself. It just is what it is. That includes how we think about truth (Greek or Hebraic approach?). It includes how we understand ethics and morality. It includes how we teach our students (story or propositions?). Again, our object should be to include and empower others on the margins. Not only will be bringing them and dancing with them at the party (relax it's a metaphor =), we will also learn from the riches and insights they bring culturally. That's all.

It's unfortunate you are so resistant to considering whiteness as a social construct. For some of us, it is so clearly and obviously an empirical and historical reality. And certainly, those on the margins, and those of color, if you were willing to listen and learn, could fill you in.

[HondurasKeiser]

Yes, our white culture does impact all aspects of our life. That isn't wrong in and of itself. It just is what it is. That includes how we think about truth (Greek or Hebraic approach?). It includes how we understand ethics and morality. It includes how we teach our students (story or propositions?). Again, our object should be to include and empower others on the margins. Not only will be bringing them and dancing with them at the party (relax it's a metaphor =), we will also learn from the riches and insights they bring culturally. That's all.

"Whiteness," as Barnhart mentioned, is a new social construct historically speaking, around 500 years old, and emerged as a facet of Western European civilization to serve their political and economic ends. It provided justification for a "race based" slavery (unheard of in the ancient world), and also justification for colonization and genocide around the globe. Those things are historical facts. So I don't see it as a "blame guilt or loathing" but simply as a socially constructed idea propagated by Western Europeans that is a historical reality. I am not afraid of post-modernism or critical race theory insofar as they ably describe reality.

I am curious as to how both of these paragraphs can be true. How can 'whiteness' be at once a culture, from which we can never extricate ourselves; the medium in which we move and think and create and at the same time a social and historical construct that we created as the modus and rationale for the subjugation of others.

It's unfortunate you are so resistant to considering whiteness as a social construct. For some of us, it is so clearly and obviously an empirical and historical reality. And certainly, those on the margins, and those of color, if you were willing to listen and learn, could fill you in.

I think this statement assumes a lot about me, my life and who I've listened to. Furthermore, it assumes that unless I come to the conclusions on race and 'Whiteness' that you and others here espouse I must be willfully resistant to listening to marginalized peoples and their perspectives.

[joshuabgood]

I am curious as to how both of these paragraphs can be true. How can 'whiteness' be at once a culture, from which we can never extricate ourselves; the medium in which we move and think and create and at the same time a social and historical construct that we created as the modus and rationale for the subjugation of others.

It seems simple to me. Culture's are socially constructed and fluid. We don't live in the same culture folks did a 1000 years ago. Cultures generally change slowly, though there are times of faster change than others. Only in the rarest of situations though, historically, are there such paradigm shifts that they are keenly felt in single lifetime. Historically speaking, we look back and see big shifts, and yet many times when primary sources are analyzed, the folks in those times, predictably, didn't realize the water temp was even changing that much. Picture frog in a kettle. "Whiteness" as a culture emerged over a hundred years or so and finally crystallized into race based slavery. Race based slavery, as you probably know didn't happen immediately in 1619. And then over the next few hundred years it solidified. And after the Civil War (a big step forward and then a 100 year backlash) in the last decades has been slowly deconstructed. Obama was a big step forward, and Trump is part of the backlash. This is what Prof Glaude is saying. Trump is who we are. He represents us.

I think this statement assumes a lot about me, my life and who I've listened to. Furthermore, it assumes that unless I come to the conclusions on race and 'Whiteness' that you and others here espouse I must be willfully resistant to listening to marginalized peoples and their perspectives.

I am sorry you feel this way...but the data and facts are just too overwhelming. Sure...there are a few with unorthodox sentiments, Larry Elder, Candace, etc...however consider this recent Pew Research.

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019/04 ... rica-2019/

A super super majority of people who are black (84% feel the legacy of slavery impacts them significantly today). 78% feel the country hasn't done enough to make sure blacks get equal rights. 71% say racial relations are generally bad. These are the facts and we aren't entitled to our own facts. It's easy for us to discount these numbers I guess and say all these voices are wrong...but perhaps in fact we ought to listen. That's all. I am not judging you, just urging you to consider that perhaps the water that people who are black are swimming in is different than your water.

[Josh]

Obama was a big step backwards for any black person not born yet.

I’m not sure how you can be such a consistent cheerleader for Democrats, Josh, particularly when they are the architects of the greatest slaughter of black people America has ever seen through abortion.