CAM Molestation Issue

[Ernie]

What is their status at CAM at this moment?

They are no longer in any kind of administration or supervisory roles at CAM. Others have taken over their roles.

[Ernie]

Thanks Ernie - this is helpful, and what I would have expected from them. I do trust them.

That being said, I would add as a lesson from the corporate world is that in a public relation's sense, during crises like this, organizations don't generally have the luxury of taking the time they might like, at least in key areas of communication and action.

Maybe Mennonites and Older Order folks are especially long-suffering when it comes to organizational loyalty, but in the wider world, when a huge organization like Boeing has a computer glitch that causes airplanes to crash, or a university like Harvard has an admissions scandal, the conventional wisdom is that the public who supports them demands openness, ownership and action sooner rather than later - and organizations dawdle at their own peril. CAM doesn't have to say everything they know, or ignore legal council, but they do need to fast-track their crisis response, and communicate that process openly to their constituency and in a timely manner. Hopefully we will hear what you have found out from them soon.

I hear what you are saying and I said that some of the leaders on the "crisis committee" wish that CAM would have responded sooner.

But laying CAM aside and thinking about this statement for a moment...
I'm wondering though why para-church organizations need to follow "conventional wisdom", if the majority of their supporters don't operate according to conventional wisdom? What if the bulk of supporters of the para-church organization would rather not have a percentage of their money go to employing and training a public media team that is ready to respond at any given moment?
Conventional wisdom is that post-secondary schools should only have M.A.'s or Ph.D's as instructors. Faith Builders has had a lot of calls to get faculty with MA's and PhD's both from evaluators who approve their courses for credit transfer as well as from their competition. And while the Administrator does have a degree and is very supportive of higher education, he thinks it should be the church that is telling the school what to do and not the state or the surrounding society.

So the question is, why can't church affiliated organizations operate according to what the bulk of their supporters expect from them, and not use funds to become accredited, or not use funds for a public media team, if the supporters would rather not have their funds used for these purposes? Why does an organization need to "fast track" if the bulk of their supporters are "slow track" people?

[QuietObserver]

I hear what you are saying and I said that some of the leaders on the "crisis committee" wish that CAM would have responded sooner.

But laying CAM aside and thinking about this statement for a moment...
I'm wondering though why para-church organizations need to follow "conventional wisdom", if the majority of their supporters don't operate according to conventional wisdom? What if the bulk of supporters of the para-church organization would rather not have a percentage of their money go to employing and training a public media team that is ready to respond at any given moment?
Conventional wisdom is that post-secondary schools should only have M.A.'s or Ph.D's as instructors. Faith Builders has had a lot of calls to get faculty with MA's and PhD's both from evaluators who approve their courses for credit transfer as well as from their competition. And while the Administrator does have a degree and is very supportive of higher education, he thinks it should be the church that is telling the school what to do and not the state or the surrounding society.

So the question is, why can't church affiliated organizations operate according to what the bulk of their supporters expect from them, and not use funds to become accredited, or not use funds for a public media team, if the supporters would rather not have their funds used for these purposes? Why does an organization need to "fast track" if the bulk of their supporters are "slow track" people?

The problem is CAM is accredited by the ECFA and you recently explained that CAM needs to pay their executives a certain amount to be a legitimate charity. This don’t seem to be Old Order way of doing things. You can’t have it both ways.

[QuietObserver]

Conventional wisdom is that post-secondary schools should only have M.A.'s or Ph.D's as instructors. Faith Builders has had a lot of calls to get faculty with MA's and PhD's both from evaluators who approve their courses for credit transfer as well as from their competition. And while the Administrator does have a degree and is very supportive of higher education, he thinks it should be the church that is telling the school what to do and not the state or the surrounding society.

Frankly I get weary of Mennonites wanting special exemptions. The only reason FB is being pressured is because they want credit transfers. The state and society have every right to have requirements for issuing credits.

I don’t have a problem with Faith Builders. It’s fine that they are resisting the pressure. It seems to be working. It’s just that I don’t think they’re being persecuted.

[mike]

Conventional wisdom is that post-secondary schools should only have M.A.'s or Ph.D's as instructors. Faith Builders has had a lot of calls to get faculty with MA's and PhD's both from evaluators who approve their courses for credit transfer as well as from their competition. And while the Administrator does have a degree and is very supportive of higher education, he thinks it should be the church that is telling the school what to do and not the state or the surrounding society.

Frankly I get weary of Mennonites wanting special exemptions. The only reason FB is being pressured is because they want credit transfers. The state and society have every right to have requirements for issuing credits.

I don’t have a problem with Faith Builders. It’s fine that they are resisting the pressure. It seems to be working. It’s just that I don’t think they’re being persecuted.

Classic strawman argument... Ernie did not say or imply that FB is being "persecuted" or desiring "special exemptions."

[Ernie]

Frankly I get weary of Mennonites wanting special exemptions. The only reason FB is being pressured is because they want credit transfers. The state and society have every right to have requirements for issuing credits.
I don’t have a problem with Faith Builders. It’s fine that they are resisting the pressure. It seems to be working. It’s just that I don’t think they’re being persecuted.

Classic strawman argument... Ernie did not say or imply that FB is being "persecuted" or desiring "special exemptions."

Correct. I don't understand what I said could make folks come to this conclusion from what I said.

Faith Builders is pushing back against the pressure of society. Not the government. Any school (religious or secular) can choose to be accredited or not.
And any school (religious or secular) can choose whether to have their courses recommended for transfer to other colleges or whether they don't want to go to the bother. Faith Builders opted for the former. They have PhD's come sit in their classes and these folks then help the school get their courses recommend for transfer through a national organization.

https://www.fbep.org/alumni/accreditation
https://www.fbep.org/alumni/transferring-credit

[QuietObserver]

Correct. I don't understand what I said could make folks come to this conclusion from what I said.

Faith Builders is pushing back against the pressure of society. Not the government. Any school (religious or secular) can choose to be accredited or not.
And any school (religious or secular) can choose whether to have their courses recommended for transfer to other colleges or whether they don't want to go to the bother. Faith Builders opted for the former. They have PhD's come sit in their classes and these folks then help the school get their courses recommend for transfer through a national organization.

https://www.fbep.org/alumni/accreditation
https://www.fbep.org/alumni/transferring-credit

Thanks for the clarification. I apologize for the misunderstanding, it wasn’t my intention to strawman. Clearly FB has done a good job of navigating this without compromising their values.

[temporal1]

Ernie:
I hear what you are saying and I said that some of the leaders on the "crisis committee" wish that CAM would have responded sooner.

But laying CAM aside and thinking about this statement for a moment...
I'm wondering though why para-church organizations need to follow "conventional wisdom", if the majority of their supporters don't operate according to conventional wisdom? What if the bulk of supporters of the para-church organization would rather not have a percentage of their money go to employing and training a public media team that is ready to respond at any given moment?
Conventional wisdom is that post-secondary schools should only have M.A.'s or Ph.D's as instructors. Faith Builders has had a lot of calls to get faculty with MA's and PhD's both from evaluators who approve their courses for credit transfer as well as from their competition. And while the Administrator does have a degree and is very supportive of higher education, he thinks it should be the church that is telling the school what to do and not the state or the surrounding society.

So the question is, why can't church affiliated organizations operate according to what the bulk of their supporters expect from them, and not use funds to become accredited, or not use funds for a public media team, if the supporters would rather not have their funds used for these purposes? Why does an organization need to "fast track" if the bulk of their supporters are "slow track" people?

i agree with your reasoning. learning should be a 2-way street.
there should be differences in secular versus faith-based understanding and response.
majority voices should be respected, the outside worldly culture has favored minority voices to a fault, to where a monster has been created.

this response is surprisingly similar to the Vatican’s response, which, likewise, is frustrating to those not involved or impacted. Christian concepts are foreign to the world.

one thing to consider, tho.
when crises arise, which is inevitable, leadership would do well to recognize their daily routines, i.e., their routines, and functions they serve, will be disrupted, and they should be.
that’s the nature of “crisis.” (disruption should be ample motivation to take rigorous measures to prevent crises.)

think of volunteer fire departments.
when calls come, they go!

in this case, similar to the Vatican’s response, and, now the Epstein case, much of the disruption is about self-preservation, which should pale in comparison to the real crisis at hand, the direct victims.

certainly this is disruptive to many who do not “deserve” it. sin-is-not-fair.

God knows what He is doing.
Possibly the #1 greatest deterrent to sin is, knowing one’s loved ones and community will pay the high prices right alongside you, the sinner! Humans would NEVER devise such an unfair system!

God knows better. He knows how to get His results. His results, in His time.

i agree, authentic Christians should have a different response to sin. different, and better.
hopefully, figuring out what is better, in God’s eyes, is in process. He promises His way out.
1 Corinthians 10:13 / https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/10-13.htm

.. praying for the Holy Spirit.

[joshuabgood]

Frankly I get weary of Mennonites wanting special exemptions. The only reason FB is being pressured is because they want credit transfers. The state and society have every right to have requirements for issuing credits.
I don’t have a problem with Faith Builders. It’s fine that they are resisting the pressure. It seems to be working. It’s just that I don’t think they’re being persecuted.

Classic strawman argument... Ernie did not say or imply that FB is being "persecuted" or desiring "special exemptions."

Correct. I don't understand what I said could make folks come to this conclusion from what I said.

Faith Builders is pushing back against the pressure of society. Not the government. Any school (religious or secular) can choose to be accredited or not.
And any school (religious or secular) can choose whether to have their courses recommended for transfer to other colleges or whether they don't want to go to the bother. Faith Builders opted for the former. They have PhD's come sit in their classes and these folks then help the school get their courses recommend for transfer through a national organization.

https://www.fbep.org/alumni/accreditation
https://www.fbep.org/alumni/transferring-credit

Well I think this is the point, if you want your courses recommended for transfer and want them evaluated and approved by a given institution, you are then beholden to the criteria of the said institution and shouldn't push back too hard on their expectations. And if pressure is put on for certain qualifications, from said institution from which you want credit approval for courses, then one would of course need to comply with said institutions criteria =).

Regarding CAM - Ernie, I hear what you are saying, and yet one doesn't need a giant PR team to have handled this differently. One doesn't really need anybody different than what they had. All one needs is the leadership and ability to recognize that an international serial child abuse/rape case is something that needs immediate, priority and messaging. And HR action in week or so. It doesn't take 6 weeks and an initial lawyered up statement (that was very misleading at best and a rather naked attempt to protect assets) - and it doesn't take six weeks to find out which key leaders knew and remove them.

And frankly, though you have seen them, there still haven't been any publicly released apologies from the institution or their key leaders. The only apology so far was from the person least culpable, and that was without CAM's authorization/initiative.

I hate to say it this straight, but those actions, if not a cover up display a boggling lack of awareness around what this issue is. The situation is still reparable and they made some moves the right direction...though they should move sooner rather than later.

[Dan Z]

I'm wondering though why para-church organizations need to follow "conventional wisdom", if the majority of their supporters don't operate according to conventional wisdom?

I think its reasonable to ask whether "conventional wisdom" applies in our specific circumstance. CAM's primary responsibility is to it supporters, because they provide the means for CAM to do their work. So, if CAM is convinced that its supporters are culturally much more patient and trusting than the rest of society, then I suppose time is on their side, and they don't have to pay that much attention to the timely communication and prompt action of "conventional wisdom." But they should be quite sure of their assessment - there is a lot of down side in misreading this calculation.

I will only add that judging from the conversations I have had among the mission community and the more moderate supporters of CAM that I know (Beachy, Mid-Atlantic, Moderate Unaffiliated, BMA, German Baptist, etc.) the "go slow and trust us" approach is not flying all that well. I wonder what percent of CAM support they represent - they certainly represent the bulk of the workers on the field.