Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

Dan:
That's where transparency comes in.
1. A serial abuser's actions (even a repentant and treated one) must never-again be hidden,
1. A. nor can he ever in his life be given unsupervised access to children - in any community.

2. Restoration does not mean all is forgotten, nor does it mean life goes on as if these things never happened. That would be irresponsible both to the abused, the abuser, and the potentially abused.

3. However, we as a Christians cannot turn any sin, even one as detestable as this, into something unrestorable.

4. The message of the Gospel is grounded upon Grace - undeserved favor - we have no right to claim it for ourselves if we are not willing to extend it to others.
1. The problem is, “hidden,” means hidden.
The temptation to hide sin is tremendous! When we are tempted to hide sin to protect loved ones, loved community, etc., it’s even more powerful. Once it begins, “the tangled web” begins.
So, on surface, yes! In action, is it even possible? (i would ask appleman. he’s seen it all, and has to deal with it, in real time, in real life.) How to get this to be more than agreeable words?

1. A. This is imperative.
A sincerely repentent sinner would respect this, if not embrace it. Possibly to view this in the ways we view alcoholics abstaining from alcohol. No thinking, caring, responsible adult would offer a known alcoholic an alcoholic beverage.

2. i agree.
One hard part of this seems to be, those surrounding forget others’ crimes as they get busy with life.
Example, it’s not easy for those who easily drink responsibly to be vigilant about others around them who cannot. “Just this once won’t hurt,” etc.

3. i’m not so sure. on surface, it sure sounds good. :)
But, what about scriptural verses that tell us nothing is done except by the Holy Spirit?

We can restore nothing, we can’t even guarantee our own children will accept Jesus Christ. :-|
We can surely pray for our own and others’ restoration. The doing is not in our control.
Accepting and submitting is our choice.

This is a BIG “loophole” that has been exploited beyond description, many victims are harmed by those who know very well how to exploit this Christian concept.

4. Grace.
Yes, “Go, and sin no more,” not, “Go, and continue in sin.”
It is initially an unearned gift, paid with a high price, but, it comes with the contingency to “sin no more.”
Again, this Christian concept has been and is exploited beyond description. It’s esp misunderstood that continuing in sin is perfectly ok. i read of this in the world weekly, if not daily.

Bottom line.
Christians can be a smart psychopath’s playground. The best ones are appealing, they make themselves useful and valuable.

Here’s something to think about.
At core, beside being wiley, perpetrators are cowards. They go for the “low-hanging fruit” in every setting, secular, Catholic, Protestant, Anabaptist.

Christians are not to be foolish.
Matthew 10:16 ..
15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

16 Look, I am sending you out like sheep among wolves;
therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. ..
We are not to offer others for sacrifice.
Jesus went to the cross, He did not send Thomas or Peter or other. He did not send children.

Honestly, i now wonder what would unfold if 1 leader, upon learning of abuse, would simply offer himself in place of the victims, “Abuse me, leave the children out of it.” - What would happen?

Because, in moments of violence, it is not uncommon for such SELF-sacrificial offers to be made.

Does anyone ever say, “You have murdered, you have repented, now take your weapons and go onto the next potential victims, because we know you won’t do that again.” :shock:

In most of history, sexual crimes have not been recognized as the brutal violent acts they now are. It’s not about sex or love, or even lust. It’s power and violence.

Different things contributed to this, not the least of which was the strong passion perpetrators had to continue in their crimes, while blaming victims. That’s a big part of the evil in this.

Can Christians “get smarter” about preventing+responding to crime without betraying Christ?
In honoring Him, by protecting the vulnerable, “the least of these?”

Reports are, there are no known cures for pedophiles, or sexual abusers.
Certainly, the Holy Spirit has unlimited ability. Discernment comes from the Holy Spirit, not secular human law, or church rules.

Who will go to JMast and offer himself? Could this be an effective response? It might be. :-|

It is repugnant. Is it materially different than laying one’s life down for another?
Is it more repugnant than risking children’s safety?

(In my imagination, i envision the JMasts of the world running away in terror.
it would cause havoc with their lust for control.)

Sorry about over-writing. Bad habit. :(
Last edited by temporal1 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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KirkDaniel
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Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by KirkDaniel »

temporal1 wrote:
Who will go to JMast and offer himself? Could this be an effective response? It might be. :-|

It is repugnant. Is it materially different than laying one’s life down for another?
Is it more repugnant than risking children’s safety?

(In my imagination, i envision the JMasts of the world running away in terror.
it would cause havoc with their lust for control.)

Sorry about over-writing. Bad habit. :(
If you had offered yourself to most of my abusers, they would gladly have taken you and still sought me out. Two for one deal!

I don't buy the whole power argument. There may be a piece of it that involves that, but I know my abusers. It was largely about sex. They liked men as well as boys.

Sorry to be so crass. But there it is.
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temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

KirkDaniel wrote:
temporal1 wrote:
Who will go to JMast and offer himself? Could this be an effective response? It might be. :-|

It is repugnant. Is it materially different than laying one’s life down for another?
Is it more repugnant than risking children’s safety?

(In my imagination, i envision the JMasts of the world running away in terror.
it would cause havoc with their lust for control.)

Sorry about over-writing. Bad habit. :(
If you had offered yourself to most of my abusers, they would gladly have taken you and still sought me out. Two for one deal!

I don't buy the whole power argument. There may be a piece of it that involves that, but I know my abusers. It was largely about sex. They liked men as well as boys.

Sorry to be so crass. But there it is.
i appreciate and accept your experience. see, for the inexperienced mind, these things are not possible to understand. ignorance is part of how manipulators work.

i will add, i was not imagining and entirely unthreatening offer. :-|
facial expressions and body language can convey underlying messages. :evil: :-|
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KirkDaniel
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Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by KirkDaniel »

temporal1 wrote:

i will add, i was not imagining and entirely unthreatening offer. :-|
facial expressions and body language can convey underlying messages. :evil: :-|
:D
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temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

KirkDaniel wrote:When we talk about restoration, do we just mean restored to fellowship?
What about to leadership down the road?

Jeriah was restored and was later given tremendous leadership responsibility. :o
i pray, no restoring to leadership.
with any description leadership, general trust is presumed, ‘way too much margin for error.
scriptures describe special requirements for leadership. why would this ever be an exception?

to repeat, i believe the comparison with alcoholism is useful.
alcoholics can learn to avoid any alcohol at all, and, they can become largely at ease with this, KNOWING THE TEMPTATION AND PAIN of backsliding. evenso, they still have to fight it.

any sincerely repentant sinner respects boundaries, even moreso than others, having learned hard lessons others have not had to bear.

insincere sinners will continue to attempt to find ways to continue in sin, no matter how minor it appears on surface. one step in, then another, and another.
Last edited by temporal1 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

KirkDaniel wrote:
temporal1 wrote:
i will add, i was not imagining and entirely unthreatening offer. :-|
facial expressions and body language can convey underlying messages. :evil: :-|
:D
my bad. and, true. :evil:
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temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

mercysfree wrote:To know that abusers acknowledge the full extent of their wrongs, and the resulting effects on victims would go, I think, a long way toward healing for those victims.

Especially when the abuser is family...everyone in the family is devastated and warped by secrecy and separation. A repentant abuser and/or people who enabled him moving away would not fix the longings of everyone most nearly involved.

:arrow: If repentant, they should absolutely be willing, however, to accept distance or any other safety measures.

But I am speaking mainly from the victim perspective saying---that is no answer. *Everything* about my personal situation (unconnected with Anabaptists) was handled abysmally, but the one thing I think would have made it even harder to understand anything about true forgiveness was if I had cut them from my life out of a desire to avoid pain.

:arrow: From the Bible, I have thought much about when Paul was converted and those who survived his persecution struggled to accept his conversion and his presence among them.
Interesting perspective. You reflect a strong, balanced, mature, informed faith.

From accounts i know in real life, and first person and other accounts shared on this forum, most victims, esp children, would not be in positions to respond in ways you experience.
Where you are cannot be forced or mandated. It’s a journey, with the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

i’m unsure about Saul.
did his sins+crimes include abuse of children, or sexual abuse of children?
because, even among hardened criminals, child abuse is specially loathed.

probably in the 1970’s, i was shocked to read the Hell’s Angels were standing up for abused children. :shock:
at the time, the Hell’s Angels were feared as a hedonistic group dedicated to sin.
for them to make this exception conveyed the message, “everyone has boundaries!”
it’s a matter of where the moral line is drawn.

BACA
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 07561.html

i have a close family member who was brutally raped at age 18.
she did not tell me until a few years after. decades later, silence. marriage, family, still, silence.
i have no idea how she would respond if she had to face him. rage? collapse in despair?

i presume he has other victims, because very few of these attacks are “one time.”
i’m sure she has guilt about that part of it. still, silence. :-|

so many victims. :-|

This meme showed up on a history page i follow. It’s not a direct reference to child abuse.
But, i can’t help thinking about it. Esp when perpetrators are relocated.
Thoughts? :?

Image
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Hats Off

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by Hats Off »

temporal1 wrote:
KirkDaniel wrote:When we talk about restoration, do we just mean restored to fellowship?
What about to leadership down the road?

Jeriah was restored and was later given tremendous leadership responsibility. :o
i pray, no restoring to leadership.
with any description leadership, general trust is presumed, ‘way too much margin for error.
scriptures describe special requirements for leadership. why would this ever be an exception?
:up:
to repeat, i believe the comparison with alcoholism is useful.
alcoholics can learn to avoid any alcohol at all, and, they can become largely at ease with this, KNOWING THE TEMPTATION AND PAIN of backsliding. evenso, they still have to fight it.

any sincerely repentant sinner respects boundaries, even moreso than others, having learned hard lessons others have not had to bear.

insincere sinners will continue to attempt to find ways to continue in sin, no matter how minor it appears on surface. one step in, then another, and another.
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temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

last night, when i finally went to bed,
i wondered, “what have i written?! Hell’s Angels?! What?!”
i woke with the same trepidation.

this morning, i (again) read:
Page 29 / http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=280
Josh wrote:Matthew 18, in my experience, gets used as an excuse to accommodate and protect abuseras.

I will tell a victim to follow Matthew 18 once I see the rest of the church follow 1 Corinthians 5.
1 Corinthians 5
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/5-1.htm
.. Immorality Rebuked
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.

2 And you are proud!
Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…
i have been thinking about how it can be that the Hell’s Angels have been acting on these sins in real life, i think since the 1970’s, while Christians of all description, and the general secular world, are “thinking about it.” :?

(i’m not sure how other religions view these sins+crimes.) i have the idea, there is variation, i do not know, or intend to study, details. my interest is in the overall Christian response, and the general secular world that surrounds us in the west. some are doing better than others. no group can claim they’ve “got it!” yet.

it was very late, but my mind was thinking, appleman, Hats Off, and the Hell’s Angels.
WHAT?? :? :?

so, here is scriptural reference to “when pagans do better than Christian believers.” :oops: :-|
.. thanks, Josh. :)
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temporal1

Re: Dan Ziegler - A Way Forward for CAM and all of us...

Post by temporal1 »

1 Corinthians 5
https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/5-1.htm
.. Immorality Rebuked
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is intolerable even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife.

2 And you are proud!
Shouldn’t you rather have been stricken with grief and removed from your fellowship the man who did this?…
possibly one of the most valuable things established in this verse is the fact that THERE ARE SINS not specifically spelled-out in scriptures. this reflects there were (and are) commonalities in morality that shouldn’t require spelling out in so many words.

.. pray for the Holy Spirit.

that, in presuming “nothing said” in scriptures means these are exceptions. no. :-|
“nothing said” can mean it’s so basic any fool should be able to “get the moral message,” not exploit it for personal preference or convenience, then call it godly. :(

in the world today, a whole lot of calling sin godly is happening.
.. God have mercy on us all.
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