CAM Molestation Issue

[steve-in-kville]

On Saturday evening a JW friend mentioned a case of a JW elder abusing a young boy. Years later, the abused went public with his accusation. He was kicked out but the elder stayed.

Joe Wenger or Jehovah Witness?

[Hats Off]

On Saturday evening a JW friend mentioned a case of a JW elder abusing a young boy. Years later, the abused went public with his accusation. He was kicked out but the elder stayed.

Joe Wenger or Jehovah Witness?

Jehovah's Witness. To me, Joe Wengers are Old Order or Groffdale.

[temporal1]

On Saturday evening a JW friend mentioned a case of a JW elder abusing a young boy. Years later, the abused went public with his accusation. He was kicked out but the elder stayed.

Joe Wenger or Jehovah Witness?

Jehovah's Witness. To me, Joe Wengers are Old Order or Groffdale.

thanks for posting this. i believe you.
the very few JW’s i know are adamant about intolerance of child sexual predators, and believe there is no known remedy. (thus, they would not be allowed in places where potential victims might be.)

i add this to reflect the unfair aspect of sin. many pay the price.

[Sienna]

Of all the reasons to not support CAM, this should not even register on the radar screen. It's a very modest compensation package. Josh offers additional details as to why it's also the right thing to do.

I am also unsure what paying his job related expenses has to do with this. That's not compensation.

I respectfully disagree with "ragpicker." Moreover, I am personally acquainted with individuals in the area of the main offices in Holmes County who were involved with CAM high levels of organizational and left CAM long ago due to integrity levels at the high levels. Yet, the main individual still remains in charge. These individuals who left have high levels of integrity in their own businesses and are very respected in their local community. This does register, as it well should.

I appreciate your being respectful. That’s well appreciated. But I’m a bit confused. I was talking about the compensation package being fair or not for that position in that type and size of organization. What I hear you addressing is the integrity of the individuals in that position, which is a completely separate issue. Am I missing something?

To clarify, I offer two questions.

1. Is that compensation fair and wise for that position in that type and size of an organization?

My answer was yes.

2. Should the specific individual in that position actually be in the position?

Your answer is no. Based on my understandings at this point, I concur.

Side note: I’ve long been a supporter of much of what CAM does. I’ve been less impressed with other aspects of the organization. So my confirmation bias would be to have my queasiness confirmed by the flood of accusations and rumors and interpretations of actual facts. But I won’t knowingly participate in a mob, etc. I want rational, thorough investigations, and then appropriate consequences and decisions for all malfeasance, from JM, all the way up though the organization to the very top, let the chips fall where they may. The most effective way to surgically remove cancer is with thoughtful precision and accuracy. Asking for precision and accuracy should never be construed as trying to protect the cancer. It just means I want the cancer dealt with as effectively and thoroughly as possible. Now I’m going to say something else. The cancer in this situation is far more than the issue at hand, or even the organization under scrutiny. The entire body is riddled with multiple types of cancers. These cancers are dependent on each other. If you go after one and ignore the rest, the body is still riddled with cancer and you’ll never eradicate the one you’re targeting.

Well, I probably just angered 99% of the spectrum from those who blindly support CAM and their supporting culture to those are consumed with anger at CAM. I’m gonna post it anyways. It is what it is, and it might spark useful thinking in a reader.

In response, I suspect there are few who would begrudge that salary if the organization well-run, transparent, and had top-notch procedures and policies in place; a thing CAM has demonstrated they are not and do not. And, as in any organization, that is reflective (and the responsibility) of the person at the top.

Your words, "The cancer in this situation is far more than the issue at hand, or even the organization under scrutiny. The entire body is riddled with multiple types of cancers. These cancers are dependent on each other. If you go after one and ignore the rest, the body is still riddled with cancer and you’ll never eradicate the one you’re targeting."

Agreed, and this is perhaps to what I referred earlier.

[RZehr]

Has anyone ever seen a demographic breakdown of donors to CAM?

Average income, median income, what percent from each denomination, what percent is personal giving and what percent is corprate giving. That kind of thing? I promise you they most certainly know what these numbers look like. I just wonder if they ever make them public.

I've seen an independently audited annual financial report they put out. This was 10+ years ago, not sure what the availability of it is. Not sure if it is freely available or not. As I remember it, it seemed quite detailed. I know donations by state were shown, I don't remember much more than that.

That is why I like MIM or MGM Canada. I strongly dislike CAM's red envelopes; these are supposed to guilt us into giving.

I don't particularly care for them either.

Sometimes, if a non-profit organization sends a "mission" worker who is a child rapist to oversee a food program, and that worker refuses food to hungry children who didn't want to be raped, and the leader of that organization is making six [edit] figures, there aren't any words.

Do you think this problem wouldn't have happened if the leader was paid less?

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are saying the leader(s) need to be replaced, and that this leader is over paid. Provided that the leadership was qualified, what do you think should be a fair compensation?

[Sienna]

Has anyone ever seen a demographic breakdown of donors to CAM?

Average income, median income, what percent from each denomination, what percent is personal giving and what percent is corprate giving. That kind of thing? I promise you they most certainly know what these numbers look like. I just wonder if they ever make them public.

I've seen an independently audited annual financial report they put out. This was 10+ years ago, not sure what the availability of it is. Not sure if it is freely available or not. As I remember it, it seemed quite detailed. I know donations by state were shown, I don't remember much more than that.

That is why I like MIM or MGM Canada. I strongly dislike CAM's red envelopes; these are supposed to guilt us into giving.

I don't particularly care for them either.

Sometimes, if a non-profit organization sends a "mission" worker who is a child rapist to oversee a food program, and that worker refuses food to hungry children who didn't want to be raped, and the leader of that organization is making six [edit] figures, there aren't any words.

Do you think this problem wouldn't have happened if the leader was paid less?

If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you are saying the leader(s) need to be replaced, and that this leader is over paid. Provided that the leadership was qualified, what do you think should be a fair compensation?

Somewhere I commented that I think there are few who would begrudge this salary so long as they are running a good organization. I've been involved in nonprofits where I made next to nothing and that is not a good scenario (perhaps this CAM fiasco could be more understood if the one in charge were not paid properly, etc). I agree with joshuagood, that something grates when the leader of a nonprofit organization is paid this amount, only to discover things are shoddily run. And, if those being served, or those working under are making much less. Maybe more equality in pay is okay among those who consider themselves "plain?" ( Does that make me a plain communist ).

[Sienna]

Of all the reasons to not support CAM, this should not even register on the radar screen. It's a very modest compensation package. Josh offers additional details as to why it's also the right thing to do.

I am also unsure what paying his job related expenses has to do with this. That's not compensation.

I respectfully disagree with "ragpicker." Moreover, I am personally acquainted with individuals in the area of the main offices in Holmes County who were involved with CAM high levels of organizational and left CAM long ago due to integrity levels at the high levels. Yet, the main individual still remains in charge. These individuals who left have high levels of integrity in their own businesses and are very respected in their local community. This does register, as it well should.

I appreciate your being respectful. That’s well appreciated. But I’m a bit confused. I was talking about the compensation package being fair or not for that position in that type and size of organization. What I hear you addressing is the integrity of the individuals in that position, which is a completely separate issue. Am I missing something?

To clarify, I offer two questions.

1. Is that compensation fair and wise for that position in that type and size of an organization?

My answer was yes.

2. Should the specific individual in that position actually be in the position?

Your answer is no. Based on my understandings at this point, I concur.

Side note: I’ve long been a supporter of much of what CAM does. I’ve been less impressed with other aspects of the organization. So my confirmation bias would be to have my queasiness confirmed by the flood of accusations and rumors and interpretations of actual facts. But I won’t knowingly participate in a mob, etc. I want rational, thorough investigations, and then appropriate consequences and decisions for all malfeasance, from JM, all the way up though the organization to the very top, let the chips fall where they may. The most effective way to surgically remove cancer is with thoughtful precision and accuracy. Asking for precision and accuracy should never be construed as trying to protect the cancer. It just means I want the cancer dealt with as effectively and thoroughly as possible. Now I’m going to say something else. The cancer in this situation is far more than the issue at hand, or even the organization under scrutiny. The entire body is riddled with multiple types of cancers. These cancers are dependent on each other. If you go after one and ignore the rest, the body is still riddled with cancer and you’ll never eradicate the one you’re targeting.

Well, I probably just angered 99% of the spectrum from those who blindly support CAM and their supporting culture to those are consumed with anger at CAM. I’m gonna post it anyways. It is what it is, and it might spark useful thinking in a reader.

I don't know that I disagree, I probably have more difficulty separating the issues of integrity and individual, from the position and salary issue...I commented below.

[Josh]

I’m noticing some folks here think the solution is for CAM to have less plain Anabaptist values. For example, Sienna and Ken both have put forward the solution is to act and think more like typical Americans evangelicals.

I would ask why not just go and promote MCC or any of the myriads of other nonprofits then.

[joshuabgood]

I’m noticing some folks here think the solution is for CAM to have less plain Anabaptist values. For example, Sienna and Ken both have put forward the solution is to act and think more like typical Americans evangelicals.

I would ask why not just go and promote MCC or any of the myriads of other nonprofits then.

I don't think it is fair to label MCC as evangelical...just sayin.

[DrWojo]

I’m noticing some folks here think the solution is for CAM to have less plain Anabaptist values. For example, Sienna and Ken both have put forward the solution is to act and think more like typical Americans evangelicals.

I would ask why not just go and promote MCC or any of the myriads of other nonprofits then.

If you want to distill it down to ‘Plain Anabaptist values vs. American evangelicals,’ I say, “Measure the actions and applications against the Standard of what the Scriptures in their entirety and purity teaches. Endeavor to follow and apply what the Scriptures teach. Whatever product that produces is worthy of my support and frankly I could care less whether people then say it resembles Anabaptists or evangelicals. I hope it would rather be like what the Israelites observed of Peter and John in Acts 4:13 . . . they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.”