An open letter to ozarkbreeze

When it just doesn't fit anywhere else.
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Mrs.Nisly

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

The problem here is that certain folks pop up saying "there are two sides to this story". A few weeks ago, quite a few people popped up here on MennoNet saying there are "two sides to the story" with Jeriah Mast, and that we needed to be quiet.
Maybe you could point to the places where you have asked "certain folks" what their side of the story is?

Have you listened as carefully to what they have to say as you have in sharing "your side"?

Maybe you have, but maybe we should ask them what they think, since their reality is their truth.

Also, I appreciate your responsiveness to answer for Szdfan, but I am also interested in hearing his answer to my questions.

P.S. since truth telling seems to be the topic of the day, why not share evidence?
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ragpicker

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by ragpicker »

Josh wrote:What Szdfan was saying, to me, was that empirical truth is definitely possible to determine - but that a certain type of person tends to pop up in cases like this who challenges the idea that we can know the truth at all.
If you are replying to me, please allow me to state very clearly: Truth can be known. I have never, to my knowledge, challenged the idea that truth can be known. So if that was directed at me, your insinuation is false. If it wasn't, well, now I have made myself clear on the matter.
Josh wrote:I do not want anyone to agree blindly with me. If someone really wants to know, I can share evidence with you, and other people involved (like Metzger) have done the same.
In my life, I have seen too many false narratives supported by "evidence" that is misrepresented etc. to not be a little jaded about "evidence". I tend to trust evidence that is fully made available in full context and available for examination. Then I want to hear the other party's response to the evidence. After all such, hopefully the truth of the matter can be discovered.

This is how a courtroom allegedly works. I have been a jury foreman on a case where "proof" was offered in the form of evidence. But as I explored, the evidence fell apart in a spectacular manner. We unanimously ruled in favor of the defendant and some of the jury was offended at the duplicity and how close they got taken for a ride by the narrative the evidence was supposed to provide.

All that to say, claims of "I have evidence" when that claim is used to promulgate and/or control a narrative, tend to be red flags for me.
Josh wrote:The problem here is that certain folks pop up saying "there are two sides to this story". A few weeks ago, quite a few people popped up here on MennoNet saying there are "two sides to the story" with Jeriah Mast, and that we needed to be quiet.
I missed that. I mostly say people urging caution before wholesale buying into any narrative. That stance by onlookers has proven to be a very wise stance. I missed anyone saying "we" needed to be quiet. At first glance, that seems to be a bad response and I'd like to see it for myself. Who said that and where?
Josh wrote:The simple fact is, being quiet hasn't worked. It's time to speak up boldly and honestly for truth, despite the naysayers.
Humbly, accurately, and boldly speaking up for truth is very important. It's something a lot of people groups, in particular the one in focus on this forum, have done poorly at. It's something that makes enemies. Those who speak up and have influence have a serious responsibility to wield their voices in a responsible manner.
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Hats Off

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by Hats Off »

Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.
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ragpicker

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by ragpicker »

Hats Off wrote:Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.
Have you seen this evidence in full context?
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Mrs.Nisly

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by Mrs.Nisly »

Hats Off wrote:Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.
See this kind of thing drives me nuts.
Hidden knowledge...
Trust him because I said so and I know...
There's a conspiracy of silence...
There's a cabal of power...
There's a secret war going on...and on...and on.

Can you give one good reason why a person should be trusted just because they're told to?
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Hats Off

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by Hats Off »

ragpicker wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.
Have you seen this evidence in full context?
No - but from reading Josh's posts, I believe him. He saw what he saw - I can't challenge that. I also understand fully (I think) and agree with what you are saying. Most of all, I don't want you two good people to be challenging each other too hard here. I am "older" - I want as much peace as possible. :hug:
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QuietObserver

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by QuietObserver »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.
See this kind of thing drives me nuts.
Hidden knowledge...
Trust him because I said so and I know...
There's a conspiracy of silence...
There's a cabal of power...
There's a secret war going on...and on...and on.

Can you give one good reason why a person should be trusted just because they're told to?
I assume you’re referring to Josh and HatsOff, but this perfectly describes my concerns about Steve Stutzman.
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ragpicker

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by ragpicker »

QuietObserver wrote: I assume you’re referring to Josh and HatsOff, but this perfectly describes my concerns about Steve Stutzman.
What do you want from Steve?
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Hats Off

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by Hats Off »

Mrs.Nisly wrote:
Hats Off wrote:Josh and Ragpicker, please continue to go carefully. Ragpicker, there is some evidence that Josh is not free to share because of the sensitive nature. However, there are some things that Josh has seen, that I have to accept as unmistakable truth. I really do appreciate your viewpoints in most of this; what you say about red flags is correct. However, most of them do not apply in this case with Josh, please trust me on this as I trust Josh.
See this kind of thing drives me nuts.
Hidden knowledge...
Trust him because I said so and I know...
There's a conspiracy of silence...
There's a cabal of power...
There's a secret war going on...and on...and on.

Can you give one good reason why a person should be trusted just because they're told to?
Oh dear - I can't get this right. Sorry, Mrs. Nisly, I am probably too much like the old deacon in the story: Someone came to the old deacon with a problem - he listened to his story and said "Ach ya, you are right." Then the second party to the problem came to the old deacon with his side of the story and he responded "Ach ya, you are right." The old deacon's wife heard both conversations and told him that he had agreed with both men. He responded "Ach ya, mommy, you are right."

We just read Galatians 5 tonight and verse 15 stuck out in relation to this discussion "But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another."

You see, none of the points you mention apply to me, trust me, Mrs. Nisly. :D I don't have hidden knowledge, and I am not part of a conspiracy or a cabal of power or involved in a secret war. I just thought Josh had adequately explained where he stood and also thought RP had concerns that I normally share.

We do have a problem in some of our Plain Anabaptist churches that have contributed to or caused this CAM and Jeriah Mast issue and I want for us all to work together to see what we can do about the issue. Steve Stutzman has been involved in good work similar to what Trudy Metzger has been. We don't all agree with their methods, but I think we all agree that there is a problem that has to be dealt with. Let's do so as peacefully as we can.
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QuietObserver

Re: An open letter to ozarkbreeze

Post by QuietObserver »

ragpicker wrote:What do you want from Steve?
The blogs are no longer available, and I likely don't remember every detail perfectly.
Here's what I do remember, and correct me if I'm wrong. Steve's friendship and seminars gave a sexual harasser/predator a platform. This man's association to Steve gave him easy access to victims. Steve knew about some of this man's issues and did not do enough to stop the harassment and abuse.

What do I want from Steve?
1. Apologize to the victims for his ministry's part in giving the offender a platform.
2. Acknowledgment he made some mistakes, and apologize.
3. Put some policies in place to prevent these types of things from happening again - perhaps offenders and victims at the same seminars isn't a good idea?

By his silence, Steve denies he did nothing wrong. This is what troubles me. What's going to prevent this from repeating in the future?

I don't doubt that Steve has helped many people. I think his compassion may get him into trouble in situations like these where he has too much compassion for an abuser.
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