What has to happen? Reforming our culture

[RZehr]

Random thoughts of mine: (When I say "you" I mean people in general on this forum. It's not aimed at a specific person or CA group).
1. Acknowledge and accept that sexual abuse happens everywhere. It's not "that group's problem." It's a problem in every CA group including the one you belong to.
2. Recognize and accept that sexual abuse is committed by people who seem very nice on the outside. Just because you have never had a problem with a person does not mean that they could not possibly have done what they've been accused of.
3. Recognize and accept that a lot of sexual abusers will fake repentance when caught to try to minimize or escape the consequences of their actions.
4. Recognize and accept that sexual abusers are not usually genuinely repentant (though there are probably a few that are) and that they can't be allowed to continue living life as usual because that will most likely mean that they will commit more sexual crimes.

I agree with all these 1-4. And I think these are widely accepted by most conservative Mennonites.

One exception may be that some would not necessarily agree with the "usually" word in #4 "sexually abusers are not usually genuinely repentant". It's not that most would disagree either, and it's not because of some devious motives; it's just that most would not have enough experience with this subject to accept that claim as fact. It wouldn't surprise me to see a rift in the conservative Mennonites on that, between the ones who have lots of experience and the ones who do not have experience. The ones with experience would probably agree with you on that.

5. Understand that even if an offender is truly repentant there are still consequences for sexual crimes. Don't try to help them escape the legal consequences of their crimes. The consequences that they go through may be just the catalyst that leads the unrepentant offender to truly repent. What's better? To be free for a lifetime and in Hell for eternity or be imprisoned for a lifetime and free for eternity?
6. Take every report of sexual abuse seriously. If the abuse is against a minor, or an adult who is mentally incapable of consenting then report it to the authorities immediately. If it's rape or sexual abuse of some kind against an adult then reporting it is going to vary depending on the circumstances. If you think anyone's in immediate danger then you should probably report it immediately. Whatever the case, adult or child, let them know that you are there for them and will help them.

These two are really the meat of the matter, since the other things you propose here are not really that controversial.

These two have to do with justice and the law and our relationship with justice and the law. All the sentences in #5 you would find agreement with the exception of the second sentence.

7. Don't shame the victims. Don't tell them that speaking up will damage an offender's or a group's reputation. Reputation is nothing if there are sins like sexual abuse festering underneath the surface.
8. Be willing to take counsel from those outside the CA community. There are people who have dedicated their lives to understanding sexual abuse and helping victims and/or offenders. They may not share all or even some of your Anabaptist beliefs but don't write them off completely. They can still give valuable help.
9. Be willing to listen when someone like Trudy Metzger or the Pittsburgh Post Gazette exposes hidden sexual abuse. Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

I think 7-9 are helpful and things that we agree with, but we could do better at and be reminded of.

[Aurien]

what do you think has to happen to reform the CA culture?

Openness, honesty, and compassion will go a long way. I am not CA. I was MCUSA, so I can not speak directly since I am not part of that community, although I am very sympathetic to it and would find myself very comfortable in CMC.

This is another bunny trail but what exactly constitutes Conservative Anabaptism? I was surprised to learn recently that BMA apparently isn't considered conservative and in the opinions of some is on a slippery slope to hell. I'm speaking from a BMA background so if I'm not considered "even" an ex-conservative Anabaptist then....I don't really care. I'll give my opinions anyway. It's not like the BMA church I was a member at did any better at handling sexual abuse.

[steve-in-kville]

^^^^ That actually should be a thread of its own. You can have the honors. My name is attached to enough threads here already!

[Aurien]

Random thoughts of mine: (When I say "you" I mean people in general on this forum. It's not aimed at a specific person or CA group).
1. Acknowledge and accept that sexual abuse happens everywhere. It's not "that group's problem." It's a problem in every CA group including the one you belong to.
2. Recognize and accept that sexual abuse is committed by people who seem very nice on the outside. Just because you have never had a problem with a person does not mean that they could not possibly have done what they've been accused of.
3. Recognize and accept that a lot of sexual abusers will fake repentance when caught to try to minimize or escape the consequences of their actions.
4. Recognize and accept that sexual abusers are not usually genuinely repentant (though there are probably a few that are) and that they can't be allowed to continue living life as usual because that will most likely mean that they will commit more sexual crimes.

I agree with all these 1-4. And I think these are widely accepted by most conservative Mennonites.

One exception may be that some would not necessarily agree with the "usually" word in #4 "sexually abusers are not usually genuinely repentant". It's not that most would disagree either, and it's not because of some devious motives; it's just that most would not have enough experience with this subject to accept that claim as fact. It wouldn't surprise me to see a rift in the conservative Mennonites on that, between the ones who have lots of experience and the ones who do not have experience. The ones with experience would probably agree with you on that.

5. Understand that even if an offender is truly repentant there are still consequences for sexual crimes. Don't try to help them escape the legal consequences of their crimes. The consequences that they go through may be just the catalyst that leads the unrepentant offender to truly repent. What's better? To be free for a lifetime and in Hell for eternity or be imprisoned for a lifetime and free for eternity?
6. Take every report of sexual abuse seriously. If the abuse is against a minor, or an adult who is mentally incapable of consenting then report it to the authorities immediately. If it's rape or sexual abuse of some kind against an adult then reporting it is going to vary depending on the circumstances. If you think anyone's in immediate danger then you should probably report it immediately. Whatever the case, adult or child, let them know that you are there for them and will help them.

These two are really the meat of the matter, since the other things you propose here are not really that controversial.

These two have to do with justice and the law and our relationship with justice and the law. All the sentences in #5 you would find agreement with the exception of the second sentence.

7. Don't shame the victims. Don't tell them that speaking up will damage an offender's or a group's reputation. Reputation is nothing if there are sins like sexual abuse festering underneath the surface.
8. Be willing to take counsel from those outside the CA community. There are people who have dedicated their lives to understanding sexual abuse and helping victims and/or offenders. They may not share all or even some of your Anabaptist beliefs but don't write them off completely. They can still give valuable help.
9. Be willing to listen when someone like Trudy Metzger or the Pittsburgh Post Gazette exposes hidden sexual abuse. Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

I think 7-9 are helpful and things that we agree with, but we could do better at and be reminded of.

I have a hard time understanding why the 2nd sentence in #5 would be controversial. I've seen a number of people on social media that are of that opinion. So my question is why WOULD someone want to help a person escape the legal consequences of sexually abusing someone? Do they believe that because a person may be freed from the eternal consequences of their sin that they are also freed from the earthly consequences?
I don't think having a person face legal consequences conflicts with showing God's mercy and love at all. Is it more merciful to cover over the person's sin and quite possibly let them continue in it and hurt others? Or is it more merciful to help them to face up to the earthly consequences while pointing them towards eternal freedom?

Paul was unjustly imprisoned and while he did mount his own defense at first he then seems to have joyfully accepted his fate. If he was imprisoned for doing no wrong and could do that then how should we respond if we are justly imprisoned for something that is a sin and a crime?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Which is indicative of a shame based culture

J.M.

OR could it be that the concern is the witness for the Church? For Christ's sake, to keep the 'gentiles from blaspheming'? (not at all justifying, but understanding reasoning)

The exact same thing goes on in shame based cultures that are not Christian at all.

True, reminds me of my former place of overseas ministry.

J.M.

[Judas Maccabeus]

My favorite of all time is one that circulates every ten years or so. Its the one where a young man from the "outside" is recruited by an amish bishop to impregnate amish women thereby infusing "fresh bloodlines" into the amish church. I'll spare the details!

Actually.....you might want to ask Trudy Metzger and others about those "rumors." There does appear to be reasons as to why they got started.

One common thing is everyone is quick to repeat rumours but hesitates to share real, verifiable details. A few of us, like Metzger, have stockpiles of this information. We have no plans to release it to hurt people, to be sensational, or to make Anabaptists look bad. I personally try to avoid repeating rumours like the above.

(As far as I know the actual truth behind that rumour was that some couples who couldn’t have children tried having a child with an “outside man”, which is far more believable. There are over 1 million plain Anabaptists. It’s quite likely something like this happens, especially when one considers the historical record in Genesis where this happened quite a few times.)

This problem is not that unusual, but is normally handled in a doctors office with an anonymous source.

I wonder what the pressure is to have children in that culture.

J.M.

[Ken]

Actually.....you might want to ask Trudy Metzger and others about those "rumors." There does appear to be reasons as to why they got started.

One common thing is everyone is quick to repeat rumours but hesitates to share real, verifiable details. A few of us, like Metzger, have stockpiles of this information. We have no plans to release it to hurt people, to be sensational, or to make Anabaptists look bad. I personally try to avoid repeating rumours like the above.

(As far as I know the actual truth behind that rumour was that some couples who couldn’t have children tried having a child with an “outside man”, which is far more believable. There are over 1 million plain Anabaptists. It’s quite likely something like this happens, especially when one considers the historical record in Genesis where this happened quite a few times.)

This problem is not that unusual, but is normally handled in a doctors office with an anonymous source.

I wonder what the pressure is to have children in that culture.

J.M.

I just looked it up. Going to a fertility clinic and using a sperm donor costs between $300 and $4000 depending on whether the sperm is anonymous or the husband's. I have a hard time believing many Mennonite or Amish couples are inviting strangers into their marriage beds to save a few hundred dollars. I know mennos have a history of DIY self-sufficiency but I think this is taking the DIY culture a bit far, and is rather different from canning your own vegetables and sewing your own clothes.

[Aurien]

This problem is not that unusual, but is normally handled in a doctors office with an anonymous source.

I wonder what the pressure is to have children in that culture.

J.M.

Do the Amish ever adopt if they can't have children? In the Mennonite setting that I grew up in people who couldn't have children but wanted them often fostered and/or adopted children.

[temporal1]

This thread has many interesting posts, some about reforming culture to prevent, and STOP identified abusers, specifically chronic sexual abusers, molesters, rapists (of all legal descriptions).

Page 43 / CAM Molestation Issue
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... int#p56057

i wrote:
Policy and guidelines are the easy part.
In the fine print of Dan’s statement, regarding CAM’s June 17 statement, is the hard part.

Page 41
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2032&p=55968#p55968
DanZ wrote:
.. And perhaps there was something in the culture that elevated these fellows too high for their own good. ..

Page 42 / CAM Molestation Issue

One thing I like in this statement is that it does not scapegoat the two executives, but rather makes it clear they were good men, but they made an extremely serious error.

This gives me hope our culture and community can eventually change how it thinks about this stuff.

I continue to hope and trust we can change in these critical areas as well. I thought there was more openness the past 10 - 15 years but change still is slower than we would have hoped for.

i think i see 4 groups in the culture:

1. Offenders

2. Direct Victims

3. Enablers in leadership, and Indirect Victims,
those with full knowledge, those with indirect knowledge, those with suspicions, those not knowing.

4. Laity, and Indirect Victims,
those with full knowledge, those with indirect knowledge, those with suspicions, those not knowing.

Crime begins with sins of offenders. Sin does not remain contained. It’s not isolated, no matter how much we want it to be! We very much want our sins to be private.

These are not problems confined to Anabaptists.
However, if Anabaptists can find “the way” to effectively respond, this will be a blessing to the entire world. The world is suffering with the same failures. While this forum is struggling with JMast and CAM, world headlines are full of similar abuses. That’s not an excuse, possibly a challenge.

i do not recall Jesus offering sacrificial victims to evil.
He offered Himself.

He did not ask, or demand, His Apostles join Him on the cross.
He certainly could have.

.. Should CAM leaders offer themselves to JMast??! .. “Abuse us, not the children?” ..

[Neto]

Do the Amish ever adopt if they can't have children? In the Mennonite setting that I grew up in people who couldn't have children but wanted them often fostered and/or adopted children.

I haven't been in that business place for some years, but I used to do service work at a place where a young Amish man worked, adopted by a single Amish woman. And he was African American. That turned some heads when he spoke in PA German....