What has to happen? Reforming our culture

[QuietObserver]

Interesting.
My quiz based on my Mennonite culture, said 68% Guilt, 28% Shame, 4% Fear.
So now my question is, who decided that we have a “Shame” culture, was it outsiders looking on deciding that, or insiders?

I think this varies from church to church and from family to family.
My results:
36.0% GUILT 48.0% SHAME 16.0% FEAR

[Bootstrap]

Also when bringing light make sure you have hard facts...... and that’s where it can be tricky.

Isn't it enough to know when there is something that someone else should investigate and determine what the hard facts are?

[Bootstrap]

https://www.wklaw.com/knowing-about-a-c ... -anything/

In California, you can be charged with the crime that was committed if you aided or abetted in its commission, but did not actually commit the crime yourself. Penal Code section 31 describes the phrase “aiding and abetting” as meaning that you assisted another person to commit a crime. Prosecutors can charge you as an aider and abettor whenever you:

• If you take a passive role during a crime in progress, such as acting as a lookout or disabling a security device, you can be prosecuted as a perpetrator in the second degree (an accomplice).
  
  Finally, if you help to conceal a crime already committed (hiding stolen money or weapons used in the crime’s commission, for example), or give assistance to perpetrators of crime to help them avoid detection, arrest or prosecution, you can be charged as an “accessory after the fact.”
  
  In these situations, you are culpable under the accomplice liability theory because you knew of the illegal plan and willfully did something to cause it to be carried out or concealed.

In other words, do you want to be an accomplice to a crime? If not, willful ignorance isn't good enough.

Think of a prosecutor saying you "knew or should have known" ...

[Aurien]

Interesting.
My quiz based on my Mennonite culture, said 68% Guilt, 28% Shame, 4% Fear.
So now my question is, who decided that we have a “Shame” culture, was it outsiders looking on deciding that, or insiders?

I think this varies from church to church and from family to family.
My results:
36.0% GUILT 48.0% SHAME 16.0% FEAR

My results were:
40% Guilt
44% Shame
16% Fear

[GaryK]

Interesting.
My quiz based on my Mennonite culture, said 68% Guilt, 28% Shame, 4% Fear.
So now my question is, who decided that we have a “Shame” culture, was it outsiders looking on deciding that, or insiders?

That's exactly what I got as well.

It helped me understand why some of the comments being made does not reflect my experience in plain culture.

[Hats Off]

My is 52%; 44%; 4% - exactly like Josh. But some of the questions were not relevant but needed to be answered. So why wasn't my rating closer to RZehr and GaryK. I think I think like they do (but I am older).

I still would like some serious discussion on the original question.

[Aurien]

I copied and pasted this from another thread since the author thought it might fit better here.

Re: The *official* CAM scandal links thread
Post by mercysfree » Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:47 pm

So I read the letter Trudy just posted. As I said over in the changing the culture thread, who comes to mind when you think of good-hearted people who want to see change, but are not *perfectly* healed themselves? Others are saying many similar things about her as this Mr. Yoder, if that is his real name...she is bitter, to her it is the collective fault of CA's, she is no longer Mennonite enough, etc.

People cannot say those things of me, I think. But I am far from being perfectly healed, either! I have tried to do things "the Mennonite way" even when it was very hard. In your opinions, what things make it *hard for folks to see* there are endemic things in Mennonite culture that--I am not saying *cause*--but make it *easier* for evil to thrive. We ought to work on those things. But we need to name and understand the factors.

I am willing to stick my neck out, but even after all these years, I don't always really understand this culture. I just see some things. Right now I struggle to understand why the CA people don't rise up and say, Trudy has some uncomfortable truths to say; let's be Bereans and listen. What is the hang-up here?

[GaryK]

My is 52%; 44%; 4% - exactly like Josh. But some of the questions were not relevant but needed to be answered. So why wasn't my rating closer to RZehr and GaryK. I think I think like they do (but I am older).

I still would like some serious discussion on the original question.

Josh said he was answering based on his understanding of Holdeman thinking. Perhaps OO Mennonite and Holdeman culture are quite similar.

[Aurien]

I still would like some serious discussion on the original question.

It kind of seems to me like people don't want to discuss the original topic. Either that or we're really very good at going off on "rabbit trails."
IF people don't want to discuss the original question is it because they don't think CA culture needs reformed?

Random thoughts of mine: (When I say "you" I mean people in general on this forum. It's not aimed at a specific person or CA group).
1. Acknowledge and accept that sexual abuse happens everywhere. It's not "that group's problem." It's a problem in every CA group including the one you belong to.
2. Recognize and accept that sexual abuse is committed by people who seem very nice on the outside. Just because you have never had a problem with a person does not mean that they could not possibly have done what they've been accused of.
3. Recognize and accept that a lot of sexual abusers will fake repentance when caught to try to minimize or escape the consequences of their actions.
4. Recognize and accept that sexual abusers are not usually genuinely repentant (though there are probably a few that are) and that they can't be allowed to continue living life as usual because that will most likely mean that they will commit more sexual crimes.
5. Understand that even if an offender is truly repentant there are still consequences for sexual crimes. Don't try to help them escape the legal consequences of their crimes. The consequences that they go through may be just the catalyst that leads the unrepentant offender to truly repent. What's better? To be free for a lifetime and in Hell for eternity or be imprisoned for a lifetime and free for eternity?
6. Take every report of sexual abuse seriously. If the abuse is against a minor, or an adult who is mentally incapable of consenting then report it to the authorities immediately. If it's rape or sexual abuse of some kind against an adult then reporting it is going to vary depending on the circumstances. If you think anyone's in immediate danger then you should probably report it immediately. Whatever the case, adult or child, let them know that you are there for them and will help them.
7. Don't shame the victims. Don't tell them that speaking up will damage an offender's or a group's reputation. Reputation is nothing if there are sins like sexual abuse festering underneath the surface.
8. Be willing to take counsel from those outside the CA community. There are people who have dedicated their lives to understanding sexual abuse and helping victims and/or offenders. They may not share all or even some of your Anabaptist beliefs but don't write them off completely. They can still give valuable help.
9. Be willing to listen when someone like Trudy Metzger or the Pittsburgh Post Gazette exposes hidden sexual abuse. Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.

[ohio jones]

Either that or we're really very good at going off on "rabbit trails."

Apparently you haven't heard of this thread yet.

We are so good at bunny trailing that we bunny trail the bunny trail thread.