What has to happen? Reforming our culture

[RZehr]

Sidestep question: Are you suggesting that somehow that a no-shame culture is better than a shame culture? It is bandied about as something to be ashamed of, even given a shameful name.Shame is right and good. If there was more shame, we probably wouldn't be having a Pride month.

[GaryK]

Sure, but how can it be proven that plain culture had anything to do with it? David in the Bible was not from plain culture and look at what he did to try and hide his sin. Murder is murder and evil hearts are what produce fornication and murder.

I suppose we could find a few cases within plain circles where murder was committed. But would a blanket statement like "plain culture is currently producing murderers" be an objective statement?

The problem I am trying to address isn't that abortions happen; it's that they happen and then it becomes a secret that the people involved with never, ever talk about.

That's not how Christianity is supposed to work. People are walking around in plain communities carrying very big burdens - and very dark secrets.

Then a statement like "Within plain culture there are some cases where abortion has occurred and these individuals are carrying heavy burdens and are ashamed to talk about it" would be a much more objective statement than "Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do".

If these people are carrying these heavy burdens and never talk about it, do you really believe they think abortion was "something they should do"?

[paulyoder]

Is it a secretive, shame-based society?

I just joined this forum about a week ago and everywhere I look people are hiding behind fake usernames and avatars, not the normal thing for discussion forums that I participate in.

[RZehr]

Usernames are hardly a product of a shame culture. And not that unusual for online forums. I think everyone participating in this thread today is using our real name. Except for Aslan and Hats Off.

[GaryK]

The last prison Bible study I conducted, the two attendees were members of a certain Christian denomination and were both in jail accused of child sexual abuse. I suppose I could say that x culture is producing pedophiles.

Mike,

Do you disagree that plain culture (and "plain culture" includes the Amish, the largest constituency in the plain Anabaptist world) has some serious issues with operating as a shame-based culture?

Do you think that a shamed-based culture focused on saving face is really compatible with Christian values?

I can see obvious signs of a shame-based culture operating right here. Faced with the news that some plain people are obtaining abortions in order to cover up youthful fornication, the reaction is "well there's no way that could be happening", "I can't believe it", "do you have proof?" (I do), "other Christian groups are just as bad", "this is no different than plain people not paying their bills on time".

You seem to assume that a shame-based culture must be focused on "saving face". Might it be that some shame-based cultures are primarily focused on their people not doing shameful things the scriptures say will separate them from God. Isn't it shameful to do things like fornicate and murder?

[ohio jones]

[quote=""paulyoder""]I just joined this forum about a week ago and everywhere I look people are hiding behind fake usernames and avatars, not the normal thing for discussion forums that I participate in.

Usernames are hardly a product of a shame culture. And not that unusual for online forums.

[/quote]
This forum has a much higher proportion of "real" user names than any other I've frequented. Also a higher proportion of people I've met in real life. I have no interest in veiling my identity from the regular contributors here, it's the googleability of the site that informs my preference for privacy.

[steve-in-kville]

Is it a secretive, shame-based society?

I just joined this forum about a week ago and everywhere I look people are hiding behind fake usernames and avatars, not the normal thing for discussion forums that I participate in.

I'm working undercover, thats why.

(But don't tell anyone, it'll be our secret )

[ragpicker]

Is it a secretive, shame-based society?

I just joined this forum about a week ago and everywhere I look people are hiding behind fake usernames and avatars, not the normal thing for discussion forums that I participate in.

Vesht vya ich bin?

I don't want my posts here to show up in Google searches for my real name. I think I've demonstrated well enough that I'm willing to say plenty of things (perhaps too many) under my real name.

[Valerie]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

The specific incidents I'm referring to are amongst the Amish (who constitute the majority of "plain people"). Many Mennonites, Holdemans, and other people have Amish background, although certainly not all do.

It's worthwhile to look at what the culture is actually doing and producing. It seems that, to many plain people, how one appears has become more important than how one actually is. The fact anyone could get an abortion with their family's full knowledge should really make all of us pause and be concerned.

I have shared this before on the forum. One of my best friends who has a ministry to those either seeking abortions or have already had them- was asked by a Mennonite to have her ministry as one of the booths at a Mennonite Church- when they were holding their 'missions' night. The reason she was asked is because she was told that it is a problem in the CA's that girls/women are getting abortions. She was shocked. She asked me to help her that night at their Church- she is not Mennonite but somehow her ministry called "Esther's Cookies" to raise $ for the cause of the unborn- was heard about and so she was asked to have her booth and she was approached by Mennonites there- I'm sure most would not approach her booth but we were both really surprised at this news. This was in Holmes County OH

[mike]

The last prison Bible study I conducted, the two attendees were members of a certain Christian denomination and were both in jail accused of child sexual abuse. I suppose I could say that x culture is producing pedophiles.

Mike,

Do you disagree that plain culture (and "plain culture" includes the Amish, the largest constituency in the plain Anabaptist world) has some serious issues with operating as a shame-based culture?

Do you think that a shamed-based culture focused on saving face is really compatible with Christian values?

I can see obvious signs of a shame-based culture operating right here. Faced with the news that some plain people are obtaining abortions in order to cover up youthful fornication, the reaction is "well there's no way that could be happening", "I can't believe it", "do you have proof?" (I do), "other Christian groups are just as bad", "this is no different than plain people not paying their bills on time".

I do not have enough information to say whether I agree with such a sweeping assertion.