What has to happen? Reforming our culture

[RZehr]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

I'm not sure if you're aware of this but your comment came across as very snobbish and morally superior. There are hidden sins in every CA group. There's no need for any people from any group to feel or act superior to another.

Did Joshs comment come across to you as superior too? Saying the plain people are producing this, could be taken as a put down.
But I didn’t take it that way because I know him well enough. I just disagree with the characterization. I also know he is Holdeman. It was intended to be a personal poke back at him, not a attack on the Holdeman group.

[MichaelPA]

I find it hard to believe that abortion has happened under the Amish. Might it be just a rumour. Plain People are good at producing all kinds of rumours and gossip.

[Josh]

I find it hard to believe that abortion has happened under the Amish. Might it be just a rumour. Plain People are good at producing all kinds of rumours and gossip.

You find it hard to believe that abortion has happened out of a group of hundreds of thousands of people, who have a culture where young people run around and get in lots of trouble before they join the church at 18?

[mike]

I find it hard to believe that abortion has happened under the Amish. Might it be just a rumour. Plain People are good at producing all kinds of rumours and gossip.

I personally know that it has, although it was Amish young people prior to becoming church members.

[GaryK]

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

I agree. Either I am so out of the loop concerning plain culture and what it's producing that I haven't heard of abortion being a big issue or Josh knows of a few isolated incidents and is broad brushing the entire plain culture.

Josh did not say it is a BIG issue. He did not state how large an issue it is. If people are getting abortions to cover up sins and they did so because of the culture they grew up in, then that culture is indeed producing such people.

Sure, but how can it be proven that plain culture had anything to do with it? David in the Bible was not from plain culture and look at what he did to try and hide his sin. Murder is murder and evil hearts are what produce fornication and murder.

I suppose we could find a few cases within plain circles where murder was committed. But would a blanket statement like "plain culture is currently producing murderers" be an objective statement?

[RZehr]

Even if there has been an abortion in some Amish group, I don't think it is accurate to say the "Plain" people are "producing" this.

Abortion isn't a result of being plain. And as far as hiding it, while I understand what people believe about shame cultures, I propose an Amish hiding an abortion is a normal human response to wrong doing. The reason I propose this, is because if you look across Christendom, including evangelical protestant non-shame cultures, my supposition is that you would be able to find someone hiding an abortion.
And it wouldn't be because of a shame culture either. Just shame. Normal shame.

I think to say that the Amish had abortion because of American culture would be more accurate.

[Josh]

Sure, but how can it be proven that plain culture had anything to do with it? David in the Bible was not from plain culture and look at what he did to try and hide his sin. Murder is murder and evil hearts are what produce fornication and murder.

I suppose we could find a few cases within plain circles where murder was committed. But would a blanket statement like "plain culture is currently producing murderers" be an objective statement?

The problem I am trying to address isn't that abortions happen; it's that they happen and then it becomes a secret that the people involved with never, ever talk about.

That's not how Christianity is supposed to work. People are walking around in plain communities carrying very big burdens - and very dark secrets.

[Josh]

The reason I propose this, is because if you look across Christendom, including evangelical protestant non-shame cultures, my supposition is that you would be able to find someone hiding an abortion.

In evangelical Protestant settings that I've been familiar with, people are much, much more open about this kind of thing. (Of course, they have other problems, so I'm not trying to portray them as "better".)

There is less of a culture of covering things up, pretending, and keeping dark secrets.

In some wings of evangelical culture, like the very conservative homeschooled types of circles, there is more covering up and dark secrets that goes on. A prime example of this is the Bill Gothard / ATI / IBLP debacle.

[mike]

Even if there has been an abortion in some Amish group, I don't think it is accurate to say the "Plain" people are "producing" this. Abortion isn't a result of being plain. And as far as hiding it, while I understand what people believe about shame cultures, I propose an Amish hiding an abortion is a normal human response to wrong doing. The reason I propose this, is because if you look across Christendom, including evangelical protestant non-shame cultures, my supposition is that you would be able to find someone hiding an abortion.
And it wouldn't be because of a shame culture either. Just shame. Normal shame.

I agree. You could just as well say that plain culture is producing people that don't pay their bills on time or that pick their noses.

The last prison Bible study I conducted, the two attendees were members of a certain Christian denomination and were both in jail accused of child sexual abuse. I suppose I could say that x culture is producing pedophiles.

[Josh]

The last prison Bible study I conducted, the two attendees were members of a certain Christian denomination and were both in jail accused of child sexual abuse. I suppose I could say that x culture is producing pedophiles.

Mike,

Do you disagree that plain culture (and "plain culture" includes the Amish, the largest constituency in the plain Anabaptist world) has some serious issues with operating as a shame-based culture?

Do you think that a shamed-based culture focused on saving face is really compatible with Christian values?

I can see obvious signs of a shame-based culture operating right here. Faced with the news that some plain people are obtaining abortions in order to cover up youthful fornication, the reaction is "well there's no way that could be happening", "I can't believe it", "do you have proof?" (I do), "other Christian groups are just as bad", "this is no different than plain people not paying their bills on time".