What has to happen? Reforming our culture

[Valerie]

From my perspective, this is a bit of an oversimplification.

Basically, image / perception seems to have become more important than how things actually are.

Which is indicative of a shame based culture

J.M.

OR could it be that the concern is the witness for the Church? For Christ's sake, to keep the 'gentiles from blaspheming'? (not at all justifying, but understanding reasoning)

[Josh]

Basically, image / perception seems to have become more important than how things actually are.

Which is indicative of a shame based culture

J.M.

OR could it be that the concern is the witness for the Church? For Christ's sake, to keep the 'gentiles from blaspheming'? (not at all justifying, but understanding reasoning)

The exact same thing goes on in shame based cultures that are not Christian at all.

[RZehr]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

[GaryK]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

I agree. Either I am so out of the loop concerning plain culture and what it's producing that I haven't heard of abortion being a big issue or Josh knows of a few isolated incidents and is broad brushing the entire plain culture.

[Hats Off]

Lets go back to the subject as referred to in the title. I think this is a serious question and we should look at it seriously. We need to stop getting sidetracked here - I can't access the last several pages of this thread but otherwise we seem to have side stepped the actually topic.

One huge area is to learn to take a victim based approach. We must learn to differentiate between moral sins and sins that take on a criminal nature. We need to learn to be more open about the bad things that take place without being so open that nothing is sacred anymore.

We need to be hurt instead of shamed or scandalized about the bad things. We need to continue to work with perpetrators and deviants, honestly, with the goal of restoring such to Christ without victimizing the victims even more.

I believe as Steve mentioned - in some of our plain churches leaders need to learn to lead - to be pastors - to be one with the people, servants. They need to learn when they need outside advice, whether from brethern within the church or from experienced people outside of our particular church. I do not necessarily refer to professionals, unless they are professionals who knows the plain people and plan culture.

[Aurien]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

I'm not sure if you're aware of this but your comment came across as very snobbish and morally superior. There are hidden sins in every CA group. There's no need for any people from any group to feel or act superior to another.

[Aurien]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

I agree. Either I am so out of the loop concerning plain culture and what it's producing that I haven't heard of abortion being a big issue or Josh knows of a few isolated incidents and is broad brushing the entire plain culture.

Josh did not say it is a BIG issue. He did not state how large an issue it is. If people are getting abortions to cover up sins and they did so because of the culture they grew up in, then that culture is indeed producing such people.

[Josh]

Currently, plain culture is producing people who think getting an abortion to cover up sinful acts is something they should do.

Let’s figure out how to change that.

We must be pretty poor at producing these people who get abortions. I don't know anyone who got an abortion, nor have heard rumors of such. Maybe the Holdemans is where it's happening?

The specific incidents I'm referring to are amongst the Amish (who constitute the majority of "plain people"). Many Mennonites, Holdemans, and other people have Amish background, although certainly not all do.

It's worthwhile to look at what the culture is actually doing and producing. It seems that, to many plain people, how one appears has become more important than how one actually is. The fact anyone could get an abortion with their family's full knowledge should really make all of us pause and be concerned.

[Josh]

One huge area is to learn to take a victim based approach. We must learn to differentiate between moral sins and sins that take on a criminal nature. We need to learn to be more open about the bad things that take place without being so open that nothing is sacred anymore.

We need to be hurt instead of shamed or scandalized about the bad things. We need to continue to work with perpetrators and deviants, honestly, with the goal of restoring such to Christ without victimizing the victims even more.

I could not agree with this more. A big part of being a Christian is being committed to the truth, and speaking truth. We also must have a hatred of sin.

Christianity is largely about living in the light instead of living in darkness. We all know we are sinners and we "confess our sins one to another that we might be healed." The world's way is to cover up sin and pretend it's not happening. Christ's way is to put it out in the open, and then offer restoration and forgiveness. (And for those who reject Christ, everlasting destruction.)

[steve-in-kville]

It starts and ends with leadership:

Eliminate the "bishop-for-life" structure. Go to a head pastor position that is voted on every 3 to 4 years. This would eliminate the endless cover-ups and corruption in general.

I quoted myself so I can add to it. In any given organization (church, business, fire dept., etc) the leadership sets the standard. If the leadership is open and honest, transparent, truly humble and shows love and compassion.... the people in their care will too.

If leadership is shady, dishonest, proud and uses fear to control, the people under them will react the same. I've seen this in the workplace, in churches, even in families. I could give examples but we already have one on front of us.