That wasn't intended to be directed at you, but I see how it looked like it was. Guess I need an editor....Aslanhasheard wrote:I asked a question. I did not call you or anyone else stupid or dense. I'm sorry it came across that way.ken_sylvania wrote:Maybe I am stupid or dense, but calling me that to my face isn't likely to help me change my opinion. If I hold a position on a topic, I want to be able to explain why.Aslanhasheard wrote:Are people in this thread deliberately being obtuse, trying to provoke thoughtful discussion, or do y'all just sincerely not know which crimes should be reported to law enforcement?
What has to happen? Reforming our culture
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ken_sylvania
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
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ken_sylvania
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
I am not aware that mandated reporting of sex crimes conflicts with God's laws. I have been approaching the subject as an individual who, as far as I know, has no mandatory reporting obligations.QuietObserver wrote:Ken_sylvania,
1. Does the law require reporting this crime? If yes, then proceed to 2.
2. Does reporting this crime violate Gods higher laws? If no, then report. If yes, then do not report.
Does mandated reporting of sex crimes conflict with Gods laws? If yes, please explain.
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Neto
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
I find this intriguing on several levels. I know that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but while this lays out legal requirements to report such things as mishandling toxic chemicals (and work-related dangerous practices?), do you personally think there is a MORAL obligation to report these things?Ken wrote:These questions are answerable. No, you don't have to report speeders. Yes, you might have to report child abuse:
https://www.lawyers.com/legal-info/crim ... lying.html
And further into the articleMost of the time, ordinary citizens are not legally required to report a crime or to do anything to stop it. In other words, there is no general duty to be a “good Samaritan.” But the exceptions are surprisingly widespread.
A few states, for example, require witnesses at the scene of a violent crime to make reports to law enforcement when they can safely do so. Many states require all persons to report suspected child abuse. Further, depending on your job, you may, as an employee, have an obligation to report certain work-related suspicious activity to a government agency or the police. These duties are commonly called “mandatory reporting requirements.”
Mandatory reporting requirements are frequently accompanied by provisions that make failing to file a report a crime itself. That failure is usually a misdemeanor, but it can be a felony. Prosecutions for failure to report are very rare, and usually involve strong evidence of a serious harm that could have been prevented if a person with a duty to make a report had done so.
If you make a report, whether mandatory or not, what are your responsibilities? Let’s first look more closely at the times when you have no duty, and then at the times when you might.
And from another article of particular relevance for those who may be involved in covering up crimes of abuseWork-related Obligations to Report
When you are at work, you may be subject to state and federal laws that impose certain reporting obligations that do not apply to the general public. If you work in a field covered by extensive government regulation, such as health care and education, it’s highly likely that you have some mandatory reporting duties. Governments typically enact such laws to protect persons who may be particularly vulnerable, such as children, the disabled, and the elderly. And some professionals have mandatory reporting requirements even where no vulnerable victims are involved. For example, environmental crimes like mishandling hazardous waste and financial crimes like money-laundering typically require witnesses to report what they know.
Non-Obvious Reporters
Some categories of mandatory reporters are less obvious. To detect child pornography and abuse, many states require photo and video processors and computer technicians to report suspected cases. In some states, veterinarians have a duty to report instances of animal cruelty.
Each state, and the federal government, has its own definitions of who is a protected person, which events trigger a duty to report, and who is a mandatory reporter. If you think you might be covered, it is important to understand the details in the applicable regulations
Child Abuse
Every state requires certain groups of professionals to report child abuse. Most commonly, people who work in health care, education, and child care are among those required to make a report of suspected child abuse to local authorities. Some states require all citizens to report cases of suspected child abuse.
Vulnerable Adults
As with child abuse, many laws impose mandatory duties to report abuse of the elderly and persons unable to care for themselves because of illness or disability. Nursing home employees, mental health and health care workers, and other professionals responsible for the care and oversight of such vulnerable adults have mandatory reporting requirements in a majority of states.
https://www.wklaw.com/knowing-about-a-c ... -anything/
In California, you can be charged with the crime that was committed if you aided or abetted in its commission, but did not actually commit the crime yourself. Penal Code section 31 describes the phrase “aiding and abetting” as meaning that you assisted another person to commit a crime. Prosecutors can charge you as an aider and abettor whenever you:
If you take a passive role during a crime in progress, such as acting as a lookout or disabling a security device, you can be prosecuted as a perpetrator in the second degree (an accomplice).
- Know the perpetrator’s illegal plan,
Intentionally encourage and/or facilitate that plan, and
Aid, promote, or instigate in the crime’s commission.
You don’t have to be actually present at the scene of the crime to be charged under what is known as “accomplice liability.” If you willfully participated in the planning of a crime prior to its commission, you can be held criminally liable as an “accessory before the fact.”
Finally, if you help to conceal a crime already committed (hiding stolen money or weapons used in the crime’s commission, for example), or give assistance to perpetrators of crime to help them avoid detection, arrest or prosecution, you can be charged as an “accessory after the fact.”
In these situations, you are culpable under the accomplice liability theory because you knew of the illegal plan and willfully did something to cause it to be carried out or concealed.
Years ago I worked in the electro-plating industry, and more recently in power-coating. Both of these industries use toxic chemicals, the former to a greater degree (in my observation). In the plating business, we were sometimes told to dump sludge from the tanks on the drive. I don't know for sure if it contained toxic chemicals, but I would guess that it must have. (This was decades ago, so some laws are different now.) Also, there was a separate building at the back of the plant where (I suspected) all the run-off water went through some type of treatment process before going into the city sewer. (You would need some acquaintance with the electro-plating process to understand the huge amount of water that was used during normal operations, so I won't attempt to explain this further.) Anyway, sometimes an alarm sounded, and the boss would hurry to that building, and then it would stop. I always sort of suspected that they might be bypassing the treatment plant in order to stop the alarm, but during the years I worked there, I don't think I ever saw the inside of that building. If I were working there now, should I report them?
Another type of case. I worked for various construction companies (during about the same time frame - very early 80's) in Oklahoma, Texas, & here in Ohio, and here are some examples of unsafe practices I saw: running a table saw w/o a guard (forbidden by OSHA). "Scaffolding" using two extension ladders and a single plank, up around two stories. A single plank between a high scaffold up on a church sanctuary stage, and another down on the floor. (We were sanding the main beams before staining, somewhere around 35' or more up, on a 12" plank, w/ no hand rails, etc.) This last example I was just told about, as it took place before I started working at this construction site: The contractor lowered a worker down into a 16" diameter bore hole 16' (a hole for an underground pillar-support foundation) HEAD FIRST, so he could check out something at the bottom of the hole.
These are all illegal activities, some very dangerous to the employees, and some to the environment. But other than the pressure brought to bear on an employee to do something that is either illegal or very dangerous, what is the moral stance on these issues? (People say that an employee can always just walk away from a job, but I don't think that people who are either already wealthy, or have people on whom they can depend on to bail them out financially really understand the degree to which modern employment practices can amount to a near-slavery type of arrangement. This then provides the moral element to some things which on the bold face do not appear to have any moral dimension.)
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- Aurien
- Posts: 1081
- Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:11 am
- Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
- Affiliation: Ex-Mennonite
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
I think there's a moral obligation to report toxic chemicals being dumped. That's something that would affect a lot of people and animals when the chemicals ended up seeping into their water. Would you want to drink water that had these toxic chemicals seeping into it or would you want your family to drink it? Would you want to cook with or shower in water that has toxic chemicals in it?Neto wrote:
I find this intriguing on several levels. I know that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but while this lays out legal requirements to report such things as mishandling toxic chemicals (and work-related dangerous practices?), do you personally think there is a MORAL obligation to report these things?
Years ago I worked in the electro-plating industry, and more recently in power-coating. Both of these industries use toxic chemicals, the former to a greater degree (in my observation). In the plating business, we were sometimes told to dump sludge from the tanks on the drive. I don't know for sure if it contained toxic chemicals, but I would guess that it must have. (This was decades ago, so some laws are different now.) Also, there was a separate building at the back of the plant where (I suspected) all the run-off water went through some type of treatment process before going into the city sewer. (You would need some acquaintance with the electro-plating process to understand the huge amount of water that was used during normal operations, so I won't attempt to explain this further.) Anyway, sometimes an alarm sounded, and the boss would hurry to that building, and then it would stop. I always sort of suspected that they might be bypassing the treatment plant in order to stop the alarm, but during the years I worked there, I don't think I ever saw the inside of that building. If I were working there now, should I report them?
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No half-heartedness and no worldly fear must turn us aside from following the light unflinchingly. --J.R.R. Tolkien
When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
When you can't run, you crawl, and when you can't crawl - when you can't do that...you find someone to carry you. --Firefly
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Ken
- Posts: 21863
- Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
- Location: Washington State
- Affiliation: former MCUSA
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
I don't know what the law was like back in your time. But today companies in certain industries that handle various toxins have quite strict record-keeping and reporting requirements and are required to designate certain managers with the responsibility track/inventory/report the handling of these materials and notify the EPA or state agencies if there is a spill or other problem. So this is the sort of legal obligation that would be an actual component of someone's job and not something that random empoloyees are expected to know about and report. So if it is actually your job to track and report this sort of thing then yes, you'd have a moral obligation to report.Neto wrote: I find this intriguing on several levels. I know that "ignorance of the law is no excuse", but while this lays out legal requirements to report such things as mishandling toxic chemicals (and work-related dangerous practices?), do you personally think there is a MORAL obligation to report these things?
Years ago I worked in the electro-plating industry, and more recently in power-coating. Both of these industries use toxic chemicals, the former to a greater degree (in my observation). In the plating business, we were sometimes told to dump sludge from the tanks on the drive. I don't know for sure if it contained toxic chemicals, but I would guess that it must have. (This was decades ago, so some laws are different now.) Also, there was a separate building at the back of the plant where (I suspected) all the run-off water went through some type of treatment process before going into the city sewer. (You would need some acquaintance with the electro-plating process to understand the huge amount of water that was used during normal operations, so I won't attempt to explain this further.) Anyway, sometimes an alarm sounded, and the boss would hurry to that building, and then it would stop. I always sort of suspected that they might be bypassing the treatment plant in order to stop the alarm, but during the years I worked there, I don't think I ever saw the inside of that building. If I were working there now, should I report them?
Another type of case. I worked for various construction companies (during about the same time frame - very early 80's) in Oklahoma, Texas, & here in Ohio, and here are some examples of unsafe practices I saw: running a table saw w/o a guard (forbidden by OSHA). "Scaffolding" using two extension ladders and a single plank, up around two stories. A single plank between a high scaffold up on a church sanctuary stage, and another down on the floor. (We were sanding the main beams before staining, somewhere around 35' or more up, on a 12" plank, w/ no hand rails, etc.) This last example I was just told about, as it took place before I started working at this construction site: The contractor lowered a worker down into a 16" diameter bore hole 16' (a hole for an underground pillar-support foundation) HEAD FIRST, so he could check out something at the bottom of the hole.
These are all illegal activities, some very dangerous to the employees, and some to the environment. But other than the pressure brought to bear on an employee to do something that is either illegal or very dangerous, what is the moral stance on these issues? (People say that an employee can always just walk away from a job, but I don't think that people who are either already wealthy, or have people on whom they can depend on to bail them out financially really understand the degree to which modern employment practices can amount to a near-slavery type of arrangement. This then provides the moral element to some things which on the bold face do not appear to have any moral dimension.)
I've worked in big fish processing plants in Alaska and there were designated evironmental officers and food safety officers who's actual job it was to track environmental issues (mainly dumping seafood waste into the sea) and track compliance with food safety and handling laws. And you had better believe they were obligated to intervene and report if there were any unsafe conditions or situations that violated food safety laws.
As for unsafe workplaces and that sort of thing. I don't think ordinary workers are necesarily obligated to go to war with their employer for every little thing like that. But it wouldn't be the first time someone dropped a dime and made an anonymous call to the authorities to report unsafe conditions. And there is often a diplomatic way to raise workplace concerns. If you KNEW something was wrong and unsafe and you said nothing. And then someone died or was maimed as a result, how would you feel? And would you want to turn back the clock and have a second chance at doing the right thing?
And honestly, if the company you are working for is a chronic bad actor, doing illegal things and covering them up then I think you should ask if that is an organization that you really wish to be associated with.
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr
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steve-in-kville
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
It starts and ends with leadership:
Eliminate the "bishop-for-life" structure. Go to a head pastor position that is voted on every 3 to 4 years. This would eliminate the endless cover-ups and corruption in general.
Eliminate the "bishop-for-life" structure. Go to a head pastor position that is voted on every 3 to 4 years. This would eliminate the endless cover-ups and corruption in general.
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Valerie
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
So where did Charity go wrong? Was it in error that they saw the need for reformation in the Anabaptist world presently?ABC 123 wrote:Ironically the Charity churches started and gained momentum as a reformation of sorts. Apparently it is not working as they had hoped.
Should we assume that because predators can be found in Charity Churches, that the whole movement was in error?
If so, could you apply the same statement to Anabaptists in general then? What if the Roman Catholics witness the vast amount of sexual sins that have eventually come to light in the Amish & Mennonite world and say "You see! The Anabaptists thought that they were either the 'true new church' or the true reformers, but look- apparently it did not work as they had hoped".
So I'm asking- is it fair to make this statement of Charity then?
I think this is a good thread to address this- by the way- because there will be seekers that need to see that there is indeed need for this to be addressed, because it does come as somewhat of a shock when a seeker is drawn to a people of faith that they 'assume' is a safe place, a people that is following hard after God- and perhaps wrongfully assume these evils do not exist among them-
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steve-in-kville
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
Not in my opinion. Its like going after any other conference and/or fellowship because one person stepped out of line.Valerie wrote: So I'm asking- is it fair to make this statement of Charity then?
If you know me, and read some of my past posts over the years, I'm not the biggest fan of the Charity franchise. I have my reasons, but that's not the point here.
But Charity and its affiliates serve a purpose in the Anabaptist world. They have their place.
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Neto
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
Good thoughts. All of the situations I described are from more than ten years ago, most are from nearly 40 years ago. (For full information, I have been self-employed for the past 12 years.) The most recent ones involved some infractions of safety laws that could have resulted in an employee being blinded because of the lack of an eye wash station in a chemical handling area. (We had that in the plating shop already 40 years ago, both eye wash and emergency shower, in case of a severe acid splash.) An employee is in a difficult situation to be the one reporting. In this most recent case (some 13 years ago), there were regular visits by the chemical salesperson. In my mind, THAT person should have raised a concern to the business owner or the supervisor.Ken wrote: I don't know what the law was like back in your time. But today companies in certain industries that handle various toxins have quite strict record-keeping and reporting requirements and are required to designate certain managers with the responsibility track/inventory/report the handling of these materials and notify the EPA or state agencies if there is a spill or other problem. So this is the sort of legal obligation that would be an actual component of someone's job and not something that random empoloyees are expected to know about and report. So if it is actually your job to track and report this sort of thing then yes, you'd have a moral obligation to report.
I've worked in big fish processing plants in Alaska and there were designated evironmental officers and food safety officers who's actual job it was to track environmental issues (mainly dumping seafood waste into the sea) and track compliance with food safety and handling laws. And you had better believe they were obligated to intervene and report if there were any unsafe conditions or situations that violated food safety laws.
As for unsafe workplaces and that sort of thing. I don't think ordinary workers are necesarily obligated to go to war with their employer for every little thing like that. But it wouldn't be the first time someone dropped a dime and made an anonymous call to the authorities to report unsafe conditions. And there is often a diplomatic way to raise workplace concerns. If you KNEW something was wrong and unsafe and you said nothing. And then someone died or was maimed as a result, how would you feel? And would you want to turn back the clock and have a second chance at doing the right thing?
And honestly, if the company you are working for is a chronic bad actor, doing illegal things and covering them up then I think you should ask if that is an organization that you really wish to be associated with.
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Ken
- Posts: 21863
- Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:02 am
- Location: Washington State
- Affiliation: former MCUSA
Re: WHat has to happen? Reforming our culture
I've been around the AB world long enough to know that there have been dozens of reforms and scisms over the years. I'm not so familiar with Charity as that wasn't my world at all. But I would suggest that NONE of them, Charity included, were reforms designed to address this and other similar issues related to openness and addressing problems related to various forms of abuse.Valerie wrote:So where did Charity go wrong? Was it in error that they saw the need for reformation in the Anabaptist world presently?ABC 123 wrote:Ironically the Charity churches started and gained momentum as a reformation of sorts. Apparently it is not working as they had hoped.
Should we assume that because predators can be found in Charity Churches, that the whole movement was in error?
If so, could you apply the same statement to Anabaptists in general then? What if the Roman Catholics witness the vast amount of sexual sins that have eventually come to light in the Amish & Mennonite world and say "You see! The Anabaptists thought that they were either the 'true new church' or the true reformers, but look- apparently it did not work as they had hoped".
So I'm asking- is it fair to make this statement of Charity then?
I think this is a good thread to address this- by the way- because there will be seekers that need to see that there is indeed need for this to be addressed, because it does come as somewhat of a shock when a seeker is drawn to a people of faith that they 'assume' is a safe place, a people that is following hard after God- and perhaps wrongfully assume these evils do not exist among them-
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A fool can throw out more questions than a wise man can answer. -RZehr