CAM Molestation Issue

[Wade]

Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...

Wade - I looked back at those who "hearted" my letter. I personally know 13 of the 19 people who reacted this way - of that group six are Mennonite-born Conservative Anabaptists, seven were not born into the Conservative Mennonite culture (neither was I) - many of these folks are not even part of the CA community. The other six folks I don't know one way or the other - I suspect they are a mixed bag as well.

Anyway, I can't keep you from being disappointed in Conservative Anabaptist culture, there are things that disappoint me as well, but you might not want to use the number of "hearts" my post got as proof of the cultural problems you perceive.

This is in reply to all the responses to me above:

I know Dan Z was not raised Mennonite.
I am not concrened whether Trudy approves of Dan's letter.
I am not worried about the rest of how people were born.

If you read what I wrote I am disappointed at how CA is represented here on MN - that has nothing to do with cultural upbringing but the current cultural state of those representing CA's here right now.

I believe when you promote protecting Jeriah from going back to Haiti you are promoting disobedience to submitting yourself to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake...

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

I don't believe promoting disobedience can bring restoration or reconciliation - so you are against Jeriah Mast. Unlike your false assumption that I am looking for justice I am looking for reconciliation and the promotion of accountablitiy which I believe would harbor a stronger desire to live for truth in the culture instead of a place to hide. So I think that is a major cultural problem as it is presented here because it is contrary to scripture and the life of Christ.

People have said to me their is no repentance with a dead man...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

[ken_sylvania]

Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...

Wade - I looked back at those who "hearted" my letter. I personally know 13 of the 19 people who reacted this way - of that group six are Mennonite-born Conservative Anabaptists, seven were not born into the Conservative Mennonite culture (neither was I) - many of these folks are not even part of the CA community. The other six folks I don't know one way or the other - I suspect they are a mixed bag as well.

Anyway, I can't keep you from being disappointed in Conservative Anabaptist culture, there are things that disappoint me as well, but you might not want to use the number of "hearts" my post got as proof of the cultural problems you perceive.

This is in reply to all the responses to me above:

I know Dan Z was not raised Mennonite.
I am not concrened whether Trudy approves of Dan's letter.
I am not worried about the rest of how people were born.

If you read what I wrote I am disappointed at how CA is represented here on MN - that has nothing to do with cultural upbringing but the current cultural state of those representing CA's here right now.

I believe when you promote protecting Jeriah from going back to Haiti you are promoting disobedience to submitting yourself to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake...

1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

I don't believe promoting disobedience can bring restoration or reconciliation - so you are against Jeriah Mast. Unlike your false assumption that I am looking for justice I am looking for reconciliation and the promotion of accountablitiy which I believe would harbor a stronger desire to live for truth in the culture instead of a place to hide. So I think that is a major cultural problem as it is presented here because it is contrary to scripture and the life of Christ.

People have said to me their is no repentance with a dead man...

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I'm thinking about how the apostle Paul related to Onesimus. If Paul would have taken your position, it seems to me he would have reported Onesimus to the Roman authorities so that he could face up to the consequences of his illegal behavior. Instead, he sent him back to his master with a letter in which he leaned hard on the master to (1) forgo any punishment related to Onesimus's running away, and (2) charge anything Onesimus owed to Paul rather than to Onesimus. Was Paul sweeping things under the rug? Was he disobeying scriptural command to be subject to authorities? Was he suggesting that Onesimus disobey scriptural commands to be subject?

[Neto]

They are committing both homosexual and heterosexual crimes. I’d be curious if that is more or less common than a pedophile sticking with one gender.

I would think that pedophilia is a separate category all-together.

Is there no such thing as a homosexual pedophile? If so, exactly what qualifies as such? Do we really need more categories to put things into?
I’m either dense on this subject, or it’s quite simple. Or maybe both. I didn’t think I was trying to reinvent the wheel here.
I give up.

I think your assessment of this it correct, that if a man molests only boys, it is homosexual pedophilia, and it should give some important hints as to what direction the counselling with the perpetrator/rapist should go. It would seem that if the homosexual issue is dealt with, the pedophilia would possibly become a non-issue - that it would go away. If in cases like that the rapist switches to opposite gender rape or sexual imposition, then there are other issues involved, and it would be an argument against your analysis.

[Bootstrap]

Is there no such thing as a homosexual pedophile? If so, exactly what qualifies as such? Do we really need more categories to put things into?
I’m either dense on this subject, or it’s quite simple. Or maybe both. I didn’t think I was trying to reinvent the wheel here.
I give up.

Clean, simple theories may be very comforting, but they may not be very true. And they may be thin ice - God is a solid foundation, opinion is not.

I'm guessing neither you nor I are likely to be able to put ourselves in the shoes of a pedophile or a homosexual, and I am not sure that everyone in either category is the same. After all, heterosexuals can be quite different from each other, so can happily married couples.

That also makes it hard to do clean research on these subjects. Especially when you consider the ethical considerations about how you treat people involved in any such research.

I think we have to learn to live with a lot of not knowing. And figure out how to live wisely with that, both individually and in community. The kind of Christianity that has a simple answer for everything, without a clear foundation for many of these answers, might be more escapism than anything else.

We know that sin is sin. We know that God is trustworthy. We know that sin tends to creep into even our communities, that we need to work hard at holiness as individuals and as communities. We know that self-righteousness and defensiveness are the enemies of righteousness. Beyond that, we know we need discernment and prayer.

[Bootstrap]

But what I don't see is homosexual men molesting little girls. Does that happen? If not, why not?

In the Southern Baptist Convention, the most frequent form of sexual abuse they found was male youth leaders abusing teenage girls. And one of the things that made it possible was that it was considered more natural and normal than homosexual abuse.

In any environment where male leaders are abusing young boys, I would wonder whether there are also male leaders abusing teenage girls. If not, why not? When I find one stalk of poison ivy growing in my yard, I wonder what else might be growing.

So I hope CAM will take this opportunity to look around and see what other problems might exist. Maybe none. But I'd encourage them to look. This is one thing I think the Southern Baptists are getting right.

[steve-in-kville]

In any environment where male leaders are abusing young boys, I would wonder whether there are also male leaders abusing teenage girls. If not, why not? When I find one stalk of poison ivy growing in my yard, I wonder what else might be growing.

This was one of my first thoughts when this whole thing surfaced. If leaders knew about J.Mast raping boys, I wonder what else they knew.

It strikes me that CAM isn't going to voluntarily admit to anything until their back is against the wall and they can no longer deny it.

[Bootstrap]

The only way to clear this up is to hold people accountable - that is one reason I can never feel comfortable with people that want to protect Jeriah Mast from the consequences of accountability.

I agree, but it is primarily accountability to the brotherhood that matters. Long term accountability. Seriously thought out accountability. And that's hard. Most fellowships are not good enough at that for some very serious and stubborn sins.

I also agree that Mast cannot be shielded from the criminal justice system. But doing our best to make sure any prisoner is safe is a good thing, not a bad thing.

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

[RZehr]

While no one wants JMast to be killed in Haiti, it is a good point that ultimately what good is it to live with unresolved sin? What glory does God get from a man living in safety and nothing else? God would receive much more glory to his name if JMast went to Haiti, attempted to make things right to his victims, and that government. To not do that brings reproach upon the name of God and JMast and CAM. I'm not promoting that he rush down there with no consideration to his safety. If he wants to have some people with him or something, that would be fine. But safety shouldn't be his only consideration. Some time to allow emotions and passions die may be prudent, but the more time that passes, the more hypocritical everything is.
How else does he make things right with his victims?

[Bootstrap]

While no one wants JMast to be killed in Haiti, it is a good point that ultimately what good is it to live with unresolved sin? What glory does God get from a man living in safety and nothing else? God would receive much more glory to his name if JMast went to Haiti, attempted to make things right to his victims, and that government. To not do that brings reproach upon the name of God and JMast and CAM. I'm not promoting that he rush down there with no consideration to his safety. If he wants to have some people with him or something, that would be fine. But safety shouldn't be his only consideration. Some time to allow emotions and passions die may be prudent, but the more time that passes, the more hypocritical everything is.

Yes, I agree.

But there are some ways to do that that are safer than others. Ken has said some very useful things about that.

[Dan Z]

The only way to clear this up is to hold people accountable - that is one reason I can never feel comfortable with people that want to protect Jeriah Mast from the consequences of accountability.

I agree, but it is primarily accountability to the brotherhood that matters. Long term accountability. Seriously thought out accountability. And that's hard. Most fellowships are not good enough at that for some very serious and stubborn sins.

I also agree that Mast cannot be shielded from the criminal justice system. But doing our best to make sure any prisoner is safe is a good thing, not a bad thing.’

That was the gist of my thinking Bootstrap. In my Letter I said that “ justice demands that Jeriah Mast face the international consequences for his actions.” My goal has never been to keep Jeriah from accountability, but Having firsthand experience with the Haitian prison system, I simply raised a sincere concern that his life might be in danger in that setting. The Haitian courts won’t sentence him to death - but because of the inhumane prison system in Haiti his setting might very well be a death sentence.