CAM Molestation Issue

Christian ethics and theology with an Anabaptist perspective
Wade

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Wade »

Dan Z wrote:I just wanted to interject that, for the most part, the discussions between posters around this Haiti Missions tragedy have been generally thoughtful and respectful - even where we disagree there has been more light than heat. Thanks all - my hope is that sorting this all out together here on MN has been helpful - it has been for me. :hug:
Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Ernie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Ernie wrote:
And one final point, the online publicity and broadcasting has consumed extra resources and energy from CAM staff. If people were really interested in helping CAM and the victims, they could have shared their findings with those who are part of the solution. I assume they felt that airing their thoughts and findings publicly was part of the solution, but I think it was a big mistake. I don't think they realize how much more difficult they made the situation. And I don't think they realize how much additional help they were to the Kingdom of Darkness.
For the record, I'm talking specifically about the publicity. I'm very much in favor of transparency and of exposing the works of darkness to those who need to know.
Would this have been swept under the rug if it was not for the publicity....I am now convinced absolutely it would have.

J.M.
J.M., Are you still of this persuasion?
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GaryK

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by GaryK »

Wade wrote:
Dan Z wrote:I just wanted to interject that, for the most part, the discussions between posters around this Haiti Missions tragedy have been generally thoughtful and respectful - even where we disagree there has been more light than heat. Thanks all - my hope is that sorting this all out together here on MN has been helpful - it has been for me. :hug:
Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...
I think I'm correct that Dan Z's background is not Conservative Anabaptist so I don't think what he's posted is necessarily coming from a cultural basis. I've found his posts quite objective and refreshing.
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QuietObserver

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by QuietObserver »

Wade wrote:
Dan Z wrote:I just wanted to interject that, for the most part, the discussions between posters around this Haiti Missions tragedy have been generally thoughtful and respectful - even where we disagree there has been more light than heat. Thanks all - my hope is that sorting this all out together here on MN has been helpful - it has been for me. :hug:
Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...
Trudy Metzger, the blog author who exposed this tragedy, said this about DanZ's letter..."This is a well written recommendation by Dan Ziegler. I don't know him. But he's got my respect." If you have Trudy's respect, that's saying something.
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Judas Maccabeus

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Judas Maccabeus »

Ernie wrote:
Judas Maccabeus wrote:
Ernie wrote:
And one final point, the online publicity and broadcasting has consumed extra resources and energy from CAM staff. If people were really interested in helping CAM and the victims, they could have shared their findings with those who are part of the solution. I assume they felt that airing their thoughts and findings publicly was part of the solution, but I think it was a big mistake. I don't think they realize how much more difficult they made the situation. And I don't think they realize how much additional help they were to the Kingdom of Darkness.
For the record, I'm talking specifically about the publicity. I'm very much in favor of transparency and of exposing the works of darkness to those who need to know.
Would this have been swept under the rug if it was not for the publicity....I am now convinced absolutely it would have.

J.M.
J.M., Are you still of this persuasion?

Yes. Most of the time that is the normal panic response in christian circles when things go wrong. I have seen it too many times.

I was part of the evangelical missions community from the late 80s to the early 00s. I first heard whispers, than picketing of general council (C&MA). Yes these people picketed to get themselves heard, with denials still coming from the podium. What broke finally was a scandal of abuse, both sexual and otherwise, at Mamou Alliance Academy Boarding School. The Alliance had a mandatory boarding school policy in place at that time for all children. Finally, the C&MA appointed an independent investigative committee, and got to the bottom of the mess. An apology was issued, and counseling was paid for. ABWE and New Tribes had similar scandals occur. None came clean on it until publicity forced them to. Gospel Missionary Union, who had children in one of the same schools is still in denial last I heard.

The mandatory boarding school policy was abandoned, and we transferred to another mission, as the Alliance basically had no place to put us, and we "aged out." We were re-screened to what appeared to be much tougher standards. This included an interview with a psychologist that seemed to last forever, and yes, he was looking for that, or so I remember. My girls went to local expat day schools. Boarding schools for MK's has largely become a thing of the past, replaced by homeschooling and local MK schools.

A scandal irrupted in my church while I was overseas. What happened...you guessed it.

Sovereign Grace, which I have close friends in, same thing. Abuse, followed by a cover up, and denials. One of theirs went to jail. SBC, ARBCA same thing. Notice a pattern here.

In this case, I believe it is poor training, poor candidate selection, and poor supervision that is more to blame than anyone other than the perpetrator. Add to what seems to be a bit of suspect theology from his local church, and you have disaster looking for a place to happen.

The men were demonstrably good men, without the training to handle this, who made bad decisions. would hope I would do better. Maybe I would not.

I believe at the local church we have very good policies in place. Our lack of "junior church" programs, and the close proximity of the parents to everything reduces the risk. We use the same policy as the EPMC. This is about as good as it gets. I have total confidence in my local church and conference leadership. I wonder if this could have been avoided if policy were in place in Haiti similar to the mission we served under in the UAE. I will tell you, the training sure helped, if nothing else, it taught us what to look for.

So, yes, had it never broken publicly I have little confidence that CAM would have done any better than the groups named above, but the real test will be if it can avoid a repeat.

J.M.
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Ernie

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Ernie »

Wade wrote:
Dan Z wrote:I just wanted to interject that, for the most part, the discussions between posters around this Haiti Missions tragedy have been generally thoughtful and respectful - even where we disagree there has been more light than heat. Thanks all - my hope is that sorting this all out together here on MN has been helpful - it has been for me. :hug:
Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...
Sometime ago Lester came to the same conclusion. He confirmed this to me the other day. That is why we don't see him here anymore.

Malcolm Muggeridge had something like this to say about Mother Teresa. "She doesn't read the newspaper and doesn't listen to the radio. Consequently she is one of the few people who really knows what is going on in the world."
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Dan Z

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Dan Z »

RZehr wrote:
Aslanhasheard wrote:What ideas do you have regarding men who molest both boys and girls?
They are committing both homosexual and heterosexual crimes. I’d be curious if that is more or less common than a pedophile sticking with one gender.
I would think that pedophilia is a separate category all-together.
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Dan Z

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Dan Z »

Ken wrote:
Ken wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Point accepted Ken. However, while I wrote the statement it in the vernacular not the technical...even in a technical sense I honestly don't think there is any evidence that has been put forth that the leaders at CAM conspired to commit a crime or cover up a crime.
I don’t have any inside knowledge of what happened here. Just what I have read. But if there were people involved at JM’s home church or within CAM who conspired to cover up his actions or brush it under the table then a conspiracy happened.

...And the people involved in this will have to live with it for the rest of their lives whether or not they are ever found guilty of a conspiracy.
I was responding to conspiratorial accusations related to CAM - I don't know anything about his home congregation. I do know CAM fairly well, and I personally know many of those involved. Rather the an attempt to cover up Jeriah's actions, I honestly suspect they were practicing what they felt was discretion in not broadcasting the past actions of a person they felt had repented and been supernaturally reformed. Again, a HUGE lapse of judgement with tragic consequences that must be faced - but unless I am mistaken about these brothers, not a nefarious conspiracy.

Regarding your last sentence - I couldn't agree more.
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Dan Z

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by Dan Z »

Wade wrote:Unfortunately for the most part Mennonet posts especially CA's hearting your letter have made me lean more toward this whole thing is a cultural problem, something I really tried hard not to believe... I don't think reading CAM's response without MN would have made me feel so much that way...
I'm thinking MN is not the place I should continue spending time with as much as I do appreciate so many of you...
Pretty disappointed right now...
Wade - I looked back at those who "hearted" my letter. I personally know 13 of the 19 people who reacted this way - of that group six are Mennonite-born Conservative Anabaptists, seven were not born into the Conservative Mennonite culture (neither was I) - many of these folks are not even part of the CA community. The other six folks I don't know one way or the other - I suspect they are a mixed bag as well.

Anyway, I can't keep you from being disappointed in Conservative Anabaptist culture, there are things that disappoint me as well, but you might not want to use the number of "hearts" my post got as proof of the cultural problems you perceive.
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RZehr

Re: CAM Molestation Issue

Post by RZehr »

Dan Z wrote:
RZehr wrote:
Aslanhasheard wrote:What ideas do you have regarding men who molest both boys and girls?
They are committing both homosexual and heterosexual crimes. I’d be curious if that is more or less common than a pedophile sticking with one gender.
I would think that pedophilia is a separate category all-together.
Is there no such thing as a homosexual pedophile? If so, exactly what qualifies as such? Do we really need more categories to put things into?
I’m either dense on this subject, or it’s quite simple. Or maybe both. I didn’t think I was trying to reinvent the wheel here.
I give up.
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