Amish in Morrison Tn.

[Valerie]

Valerie, you have often mentioned people who suffered through chemo or radiation and then died. I'm curious if you know of any cases where chemo or radiation worked and those people are still alive? Also curious if you know of any cases where people chose to treat cancer using alternate means and also suffered and died?

I have to really think about that Gary K- so many come to mind that went through chemo/radiation & died.

I do know people still alive who had cancer & went conventional- one is constantly suffering as she is on her 3rd round- you see chemo can make you worse in other ways-
Our pastor had prostrate cancer- I honestly don't know what route he took- probably conventional AND PRAYER-
He's doing well- we were not attending the church at the time- so not sure of details.
There is an Amish girl in our county who went through chemo & lived BUT when Akron Children's Hospital wanted her to keep coming back, she told her parents she was too sick from the treatments and begged them not to make her.
At this point, the parents no longer wanted her to suffer the conventional way. So they would not send her back.
THEN Akron Hospital took them to court- our county ruled in the parents favor.
THEN the hospital took it to the state who then awarded guardianship of the child to the hospital to MAKE her go through more treatments.
At this point, her parents took her out of the country and had her treated with natural products.
This story was in our papers- (eventually Akron Hospital bowed out of this! and papers were suddenly quiet about it all)
but I got to know her uncle via facebook so he recently informed me she is doing great and the natural products she is still using for maintenance- Akron Children's Hospital's claim is that she would die if she didn't continue her treatments- well, it's been several years.

I don't know anyone personally who has died from going the natural route and prayer. I am sure this weighs into my feelings about this.

My cousin was healed through prayers in the 60's- the doctors called it a miracle because she was, as they said, in her last hours. She's still alive and well.

Did you read my praise report post about my mom?
I don't rule out chemo-completely but have just been to too many funerals and known of others who went through horror stories, tremendous financial burdens and still died.

I have a sister-in-law who is cancer free and doing well who went through chemo.

These statistics might interest you. While we all probably know people who have suffered through conventional treatment and died, I suppose the loved ones of the 10.3 million people in the U.S. who have survived 5 or more years after diagnosis and treatment are thankful there are conventional ways of treating cancer. My SIL and we as a family sure are!

Great news about your mom!

Thank you!

I am encouraged by the statistics, probably shocked actually- and perhaps I needed to be-
It's also great to hear about your SIL-
I remembered a real estate agent that survived it too (although I don't think her's seemed life threatening but to some extent it always is)

It's hard to see those #'s conveying THAT many people getting cancer!!

[Valerie]

How do we determine what's clearly witchcraft? If something doesn't work it's quackery; but if it works, then it's witchcraft? How do we investigate these things without getting too close?

An example of other-worldly and dark sources of power is an iridologist who claims to be able to understand someone’s spiritual condition, like JohnHurt’s story above about the iridologist who diagnosed someone as having unresolved guilt.

But who doesn't have some regret, that you could call unresolved guilt if you did enough navel-gazing. Or this patient possibly presented themselves in a depressed or nervous manner. Sometimes we have these strong hunches about people that we have gathered from our life's experiences. That doesn't mean they have psychic powers.

Plus why would the father of lies want to help a person with unresolved guilt? He's the accuser of the brethren and wants us to feel guilty, not bring it out so you're healed!

[ken_sylvania]

An example of other-worldly and dark sources of power is an iridologist who claims to be able to understand someone’s spiritual condition, like JohnHurt’s story above about the iridologist who diagnosed someone as having unresolved guilt.

But who doesn't have some regret, that you could call unresolved guilt if you did enough navel-gazing. Or this patient possibly presented themselves in a depressed or nervous manner. Sometimes we have these strong hunches about people that we have gathered from our life's experiences. That doesn't mean they have psychic powers.

Plus why would the father of lies want to help a person with unresolved guilt? He's the accuser of the brethren and wants us to feel guilty, not bring it out so you're healed!

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

If the devil can convince people that the power he gives them is actually power from God, he has a terrible strong grip upon them.

[GaryK]

I have a sister-in-law who is cancer free and doing well who went through chemo.

These statistics might interest you. While we all probably know people who have suffered through conventional treatment and died, I suppose the loved ones of the 10.3 million people in the U.S. who have survived 5 or more years after diagnosis and treatment are thankful there are conventional ways of treating cancer. My SIL and we as a family sure are!

Great news about your mom!

Thank you!

I am encouraged by the statistics, probably shocked actually- and perhaps I needed to be-
It's also great to hear about your SIL-
I remembered a real estate agent that survived it too (although I don't think her's seemed life threatening but to some extent it always is)

It's hard to see those #'s conveying THAT many people getting cancer!!

I think early detection is key. It seems treatment is often much more effective at that point than waiting until it's life threatening.

[Valerie]

But who doesn't have some regret, that you could call unresolved guilt if you did enough navel-gazing. Or this patient possibly presented themselves in a depressed or nervous manner. Sometimes we have these strong hunches about people that we have gathered from our life's experiences. That doesn't mean they have psychic powers.

Plus why would the father of lies want to help a person with unresolved guilt? He's the accuser of the brethren and wants us to feel guilty, not bring it out so you're healed!

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

If the devil can convince people that the power he gives them is actually power from God, he has a terrible strong grip upon them.

Do iridologists claim it is from God? Or science?
Does God use physicians or are they completely separate from each other?
Did Jesus use unusual means when He healed people? I seem to remember He did-
I assume then you believe that iridology is sorcery? Or witchcraft? Don't those involve potions, chantings- etc?

[Valerie]

I have a sister-in-law who is cancer free and doing well who went through chemo.

These statistics might interest you. While we all probably know people who have suffered through conventional treatment and died, I suppose the loved ones of the 10.3 million people in the U.S. who have survived 5 or more years after diagnosis and treatment are thankful there are conventional ways of treating cancer. My SIL and we as a family sure are!

Great news about your mom!

Thank you!

I am encouraged by the statistics, probably shocked actually- and perhaps I needed to be-
It's also great to hear about your SIL-
I remembered a real estate agent that survived it too (although I don't think her's seemed life threatening but to some extent it always is)

It's hard to see those #'s conveying THAT many people getting cancer!!

I think early detection is key. It seems treatment is often much more effective at that point than waiting until it's life threatening.

True and I believe that doctor's do a good job at that-
Teaching us how to avoid the myriads of things that invite or lead to cancer is beneficial to help prevent it but the numbers are going in the 'growing' direction- it's getting hard to avoid one kind or another-

[ken_sylvania]

Plus why would the father of lies want to help a person with unresolved guilt? He's the accuser of the brethren and wants us to feel guilty, not bring it out so you're healed!

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

If the devil can convince people that the power he gives them is actually power from God, he has a terrible strong grip upon them.

Do iridologists claim it is from God? Or science?
Does God use physicians or are they completely separate from each other?
Did Jesus use unusual means when He healed people? I seem to remember He did-
I assume then you believe that iridology is sorcery? Or witchcraft? Don't those involve potions, chantings- etc?

I think that a person who claims to be able to diagnose liver ailments by looking at patterns in my irises is more likely than not a quack or a charlatan. I think there is a possibility that reliable success in such a practice could be the result of magic.

Do you think that fortunetelling by palm reading is sorcery or witchcraft?

I don't think there is much difference between looking at a person's irises and guessing that they have unresolved guilt from 20 years ago, vs. looking at the lines in their palms and guessing that someone very dear to them will die in the future.

[Wade]

If the devil can convince people that the power he gives them is actually power from God, he has a terrible strong grip upon them.

Do iridologists claim it is from God? Or science?
Does God use physicians or are they completely separate from each other?
Did Jesus use unusual means when He healed people? I seem to remember He did-
I assume then you believe that iridology is sorcery? Or witchcraft? Don't those involve potions, chantings- etc?

I think that a person who claims to be able to diagnose liver ailments by looking at patterns in my irises is more likely than not a quack or a charlatan. I think there is a possibility that reliable success in such a practice could be the result of magic.

Do you think that fortunetelling by palm reading is sorcery or witchcraft?

I don't think there is much difference between looking at a person's irises and guessing that they have unresolved guilt from 20 years ago, vs. looking at the lines in their palms and guessing that someone very dear to them will die in the future.

Conventional doctors look in peoples eyes every day to detect health issues including liver issues. I think what is so completely inconsistent that is troubling about your reasoning is that you apply your reasoning only to people who don't have a degree in conventional medicine.
It really sounds like you are saying looking into someone's eye to detect anything to do with health is quackery or witchcraft unless it is a conventional doctor. Which has nothing to do with truth but rather bias.
Maybe you can't relate but it isn't that hard for a parent to see guilt on their child's face or in their eyes - no witchcraft involved - just paying attention to how one displays emotions.

[Eloise]

I would like to see the statistics showing how many people who were treated for cancer by conventional means, became cancer free. And how many were not cured and passed away after the cancer treatment. And more importantly I'd like to know how many died because of the cancer treatment.
My mother had chemo and radiation treatment for cancer. It destroyed her intestines. She had to live with a colostomy bag for years after the radiation treatment. And grew weaker and weaker because she did not have enough intestines left to absorb enough nutrients. She eventually died from an infection she contracted at the hospital from being fed through an iv. And yes she lived over 10 years after the treatments. But was constantly sick, and had to take high doses of pain medication for the remainder of her life.
So in the end the conventional therapies killed the cancer, but the treatment eventually killed the patient. Im guessing that the government statistics would only show that she was cured by conventional cancer treatments, while not ever mentioning how many patients suffered in terrible pain for years afterward until they finally died because of the treament.

[ken_sylvania]

Do iridologists claim it is from God? Or science?
Does God use physicians or are they completely separate from each other?
Did Jesus use unusual means when He healed people? I seem to remember He did-
I assume then you believe that iridology is sorcery? Or witchcraft? Don't those involve potions, chantings- etc?

I think that a person who claims to be able to diagnose liver ailments by looking at patterns in my irises is more likely than not a quack or a charlatan. I think there is a possibility that reliable success in such a practice could be the result of magic.

Do you think that fortunetelling by palm reading is sorcery or witchcraft?

I don't think there is much difference between looking at a person's irises and guessing that they have unresolved guilt from 20 years ago, vs. looking at the lines in their palms and guessing that someone very dear to them will die in the future.

Conventional doctors look in peoples eyes every day to detect health issues including liver issues. I think what is so completely inconsistent that is troubling about your reasoning is that you apply your reasoning only to people who don't have a degree in conventional medicine.

Actually, (and this might surprise you), I apply my reasoning regardless of whether a person has a degree in conventional medicine. I heard recently of a nutritionist who told her patient that root canals are bad because "when the dentist does a root canal, they remove the tooth, clean it really well, and then cement it back in place. The dentist doesn't get all the infection out, so when the tooth is cemented back in place it seals in the infection which has nowhere else to go, so it goes into the bone and ends up spreading all through the body and causes cancer." This nutritionist therefore recommends that an tooth requiring a root canal be removed and an implant installed instead.
Now, I have no idea whether this nutritionist has a degree in conventional medicine or not, but I have had a root canal done already and I know that the dentist did not remove my tooth. When a provider, whether traditional or non-traditional, preaches this kind of malarkey, they lose my trust very quickly.

It really sounds like you are saying looking into someone's eye to detect anything to do with health is quackery or witchcraft unless it is a conventional doctor. Which has nothing to do with truth but rather bias.

Take a look again at what I wrote. I agree that the symptoms of certain illnesses do manifest themselves in the eyes. I look at the eyes, ears, etc. of cattle when attempting to diagnose their illnesses (no, I do not have a degree in conventional veterinary medicine - some of my treatments you might consider alternative health practices). But I do think the idea that any and every illness can be diagnosed just by looking at a person's irises, (just the irises, mind you, not the whites or the pupils) is bogus.

Maybe you can't relate but it isn't that hard for a parent to see guilt on their child's face or in their eyes - no witchcraft involved - just paying attention to how one displays emotions.

Exactly. But if you told me that there is a specific location on every person's left iris that develops a spot when a person is guilty, another that develops a spot when they have gout, and another that develops a spot when the person has kidney stones, I would not believe you.
This is exactly why I'm not convinced that iridology is witchcraft - I think I said at least twice in this thread so far that I'm not convinced it is witchcraft. I think it is more likely that accomplished iridologists are getting their clues by reading people's body language and how they react to various statements, etc., but I really don't know.