Amish in Morrison Tn.

[JohnHurt]

See you at the poll.

You have the poll wrong.

It should be:

Do you have any personal experience with Iridology?

Yes. No.

If yes, was it good or bad?

[mike]

I understand iridology was discovered by a mortician who kept careful notes over a 30 year period. Whenever a cadaver was brought in, he noted that there were spots on the eyes in certain locations if the liver was diseased, spots in other locations of the iris if the heart or kidneys had diseases, etc. He noticed this pattern for many different diseases, wrote down his notes and distributed them, then others have used this knowledge as a diagnosis tool.

The real "test" of a hypothesis is to put it into practice and verify the results as predicted.

I agree with this last statement.

And tests that have been done have demonstrated repeatedly that iridology is nonsense.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/iridology/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213874
https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRe ... sions.html
https://www.spaceandmotion.com/health/iridology.htm
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaop ... cle/412789

I expect you to discount these sorts of studies, but I just wanted to point out a few anyway.

[QuietObserver]

Regardless of big pharma, iridology, reflexology, pow-wows, and other similar practices are witchcraft and have no place in the life of a Christian.

I think we should be careful to divide between things that are quackery and things that are clearly witchcraft. I think you may be mixing the two here.

How do we determine what's clearly witchcraft? If something doesn't work it's quackery; but if it works, then it's witchcraft? How do we investigate these things without getting too close?

[Valerie]

I understand iridology was discovered by a mortician who kept careful notes over a 30 year period. Whenever a cadaver was brought in, he noted that there were spots on the eyes in certain locations if the liver was diseased, spots in other locations of the iris if the heart or kidneys had diseases, etc. He noticed this pattern for many different diseases, wrote down his notes and distributed them, then others have used this knowledge as a diagnosis tool.

The real "test" of a hypothesis is to put it into practice and verify the results as predicted.

I agree with this last statement.

And tests that have been done have demonstrated repeatedly that iridology is nonsense.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/iridology/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213874
https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRe ... sions.html
https://www.spaceandmotion.com/health/iridology.htm
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaop ... cle/412789

I expect you to discount these sorts of studies, but I just wanted to point out a few anyway.

If that is so clearly the case, why do people continue to pursue this? In other words- I know many people (including John Hurt's sad story of his parents) who went the route of chemo/radiation and it did not work and the people suffered and died. I've been to too many funerals. Do we then dismiss chemo/radiation?

[Josh]

Regardless of big pharma, iridology, reflexology, pow-wows, and other similar practices are witchcraft and have no place in the life of a Christian.

I think we should be careful to divide between things that are quackery and things that are clearly witchcraft. I think you may be mixing the two here.

How do we determine what's clearly witchcraft? If something doesn't work it's quackery; but if it works, then it's witchcraft? How do we investigate these things without getting too close?

An example of other-worldly and dark sources of power is an iridologist who claims to be able to understand someone’s spiritual condition, like JohnHurt’s story above about the iridologist who diagnosed someone as having unresolved guilt.

[Valerie]

I think we should be careful to divide between things that are quackery and things that are clearly witchcraft. I think you may be mixing the two here.

How do we determine what's clearly witchcraft? If something doesn't work it's quackery; but if it works, then it's witchcraft? How do we investigate these things without getting too close?

An example of other-worldly and dark sources of power is an iridologist who claims to be able to understand someone’s spiritual condition, like JohnHurt’s story above about the iridologist who diagnosed someone as having unresolved guilt.

Why is that associated with the devil Josh? What makes it not a gift from the Lord? Knowledge? How is that entering into darkness to help someone? What of 'body language'- that is not part of dark arts- it's from studies. can we be confusing things here?

[GaryK]

I understand iridology was discovered by a mortician who kept careful notes over a 30 year period. Whenever a cadaver was brought in, he noted that there were spots on the eyes in certain locations if the liver was diseased, spots in other locations of the iris if the heart or kidneys had diseases, etc. He noticed this pattern for many different diseases, wrote down his notes and distributed them, then others have used this knowledge as a diagnosis tool.

The real "test" of a hypothesis is to put it into practice and verify the results as predicted.

I agree with this last statement.

And tests that have been done have demonstrated repeatedly that iridology is nonsense.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/iridology/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213874
https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRe ... sions.html
https://www.spaceandmotion.com/health/iridology.htm
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaop ... cle/412789

I expect you to discount these sorts of studies, but I just wanted to point out a few anyway.

If that is so clearly the case, why do people continue to pursue this? In other words- I know many people (including John Hurt's sad story of his parents) who went the route of chemo/radiation and it did not work and the people suffered and died. I've been to too many funerals. Do we then dismiss chemo/radiation?

Valerie, you have often mentioned people who suffered through chemo or radiation and then died. I'm curious if you know of any cases where chemo or radiation worked and those people are still alive? Also curious if you know of any cases where people chose to treat cancer using alternate means and also suffered and died?

[Valerie]

I agree with this last statement.

And tests that have been done have demonstrated repeatedly that iridology is nonsense.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/iridology/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10213874
https://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRe ... sions.html
https://www.spaceandmotion.com/health/iridology.htm
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaop ... cle/412789

I expect you to discount these sorts of studies, but I just wanted to point out a few anyway.

If that is so clearly the case, why do people continue to pursue this? In other words- I know many people (including John Hurt's sad story of his parents) who went the route of chemo/radiation and it did not work and the people suffered and died. I've been to too many funerals. Do we then dismiss chemo/radiation?

Valerie, you have often mentioned people who suffered through chemo or radiation and then died. I'm curious if you know of any cases where chemo or radiation worked and those people are still alive? Also curious if you know of any cases where people chose to treat cancer using alternate means and also suffered and died?

I have to really think about that Gary K- so many come to mind that went through chemo/radiation & died.

I do know people still alive who had cancer & went conventional- one is constantly suffering as she is on her 3rd round- you see chemo can make you worse in other ways-
Our pastor had prostrate cancer- I honestly don't know what route he took- probably conventional AND PRAYER-
He's doing well- we were not attending the church at the time- so not sure of details.
There is an Amish girl in our county who went through chemo & lived BUT when Akron Children's Hospital wanted her to keep coming back, she told her parents she was too sick from the treatments and begged them not to make her.
At this point, the parents no longer wanted her to suffer the conventional way. So they would not send her back.
THEN Akron Hospital took them to court- our county ruled in the parents favor.
THEN the hospital took it to the state who then awarded guardianship of the child to the hospital to MAKE her go through more treatments.
At this point, her parents took her out of the country and had her treated with natural products.
This story was in our papers- (eventually Akron Hospital bowed out of this! and papers were suddenly quiet about it all)
but I got to know her uncle via facebook so he recently informed me she is doing great and the natural products she is still using for maintenance- Akron Children's Hospital's claim is that she would die if she didn't continue her treatments- well, it's been several years.

I don't know anyone personally who has died from going the natural route and prayer. I am sure this weighs into my feelings about this.

My cousin was healed through prayers in the 60's- the doctors called it a miracle because she was, as they said, in her last hours. She's still alive and well.

Did you read my praise report post about my mom?
I don't rule out chemo-completely but have just been to too many funerals and known of others who went through horror stories, tremendous financial burdens and still died.

[QuietObserver]

I think we should be careful to divide between things that are quackery and things that are clearly witchcraft. I think you may be mixing the two here.

How do we determine what's clearly witchcraft? If something doesn't work it's quackery; but if it works, then it's witchcraft? How do we investigate these things without getting too close?

An example of other-worldly and dark sources of power is an iridologist who claims to be able to understand someone’s spiritual condition, like JohnHurt’s story above about the iridologist who diagnosed someone as having unresolved guilt.

But who doesn't have some regret, that you could call unresolved guilt if you did enough navel-gazing. Or this patient possibly presented themselves in a depressed or nervous manner. Sometimes we have these strong hunches about people that we have gathered from our life's experiences. That doesn't mean they have psychic powers.

[GaryK]

Valerie, you have often mentioned people who suffered through chemo or radiation and then died. I'm curious if you know of any cases where chemo or radiation worked and those people are still alive? Also curious if you know of any cases where people chose to treat cancer using alternate means and also suffered and died?

I have to really think about that Gary K- so many come to mind that went through chemo/radiation & died.

I do know people still alive who had cancer & went conventional- one is constantly suffering as she is on her 3rd round- you see chemo can make you worse in other ways-
Our pastor had prostrate cancer- I honestly don't know what route he took- probably conventional AND PRAYER-
He's doing well- we were not attending the church at the time- so not sure of details.
There is an Amish girl in our county who went through chemo & lived BUT when Akron Children's Hospital wanted her to keep coming back, she told her parents she was too sick from the treatments and begged them not to make her.
At this point, the parents no longer wanted her to suffer the conventional way. So they would not send her back.
THEN Akron Hospital took them to court- our county ruled in the parents favor.
THEN the hospital took it to the state who then awarded guardianship of the child to the hospital to MAKE her go through more treatments.
At this point, her parents took her out of the country and had her treated with natural products.
This story was in our papers- (eventually Akron Hospital bowed out of this! and papers were suddenly quiet about it all)
but I got to know her uncle via facebook so he recently informed me she is doing great and the natural products she is still using for maintenance- Akron Children's Hospital's claim is that she would die if she didn't continue her treatments- well, it's been several years.

I don't know anyone personally who has died from going the natural route and prayer. I am sure this weighs into my feelings about this.

My cousin was healed through prayers in the 60's- the doctors called it a miracle because she was, as they said, in her last hours. She's still alive and well.

Did you read my praise report post about my mom?
I don't rule out chemo-completely but have just been to too many funerals and known of others who went through horror stories, tremendous financial burdens and still died.

I have a sister-in-law who is cancer free and doing well who went through chemo.

These statistics might interest you. While we all probably know people who have suffered through conventional treatment and died, I suppose the loved ones of the 10.3 million people in the U.S. who have survived 5 or more years after diagnosis and treatment are thankful there are conventional ways of treating cancer. My SIL and we as a family sure are!

Great news about your mom!