My only question is why are you protecting the geese?RZehr wrote:I’m not sure who the left is. If it’s me, I unilaterally, unequivocally condemn this insanity of abortion.
I don’t know enough about the worms to comment on that. I’m somewhat involved in agriculture, and I know here in the NW the farmers have all kinds of spraying regulations of pesticide and insecticide, and are required to take classes each year to maintain their license.
I suppose the regulation on timing of the worm spray may be quite appropriate.
It could be that they are protecting another specie that is at risk during that window. For example we can’t poison voles in the fields a certain time because it endangers migratory Canada geese.
Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
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appleman2006
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
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RZehr
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
Good question. There used to be few, now there are thousands. They can do incredible amount of damage to a crop. I know a field that wasn’t even harvested because they destroyed it.
There are about 11 Canada goose subspecies and to hunt them in the Willamette Valley you have to pass a test and be able to identify each of them. The most numerous is the cacklers about the size of a overgrown mallard, which needs shot, and the protected one is the dusky which shouldn’t be mistakenly shot. And the dusky is dumber, not wary.
The dusky primarily used two breeding spots, the Copper River Delta and Middleton Island.
An earthquake in 1964 lifted the delta by 4 feet and their numbers plummeted. They essentially lost the delta for nesting purposes.
So now they use the island but it can only fit a small amount of nesting pairs. I think the duskys numbers are better than they were 25 years ago, but don’t poison the duskys.
The farmers use hunting, sound cannons, bald eagle decoys, atvs, dogs, and lasers to protect the crop from geese.
There are about 11 Canada goose subspecies and to hunt them in the Willamette Valley you have to pass a test and be able to identify each of them. The most numerous is the cacklers about the size of a overgrown mallard, which needs shot, and the protected one is the dusky which shouldn’t be mistakenly shot. And the dusky is dumber, not wary.
The dusky primarily used two breeding spots, the Copper River Delta and Middleton Island.
An earthquake in 1964 lifted the delta by 4 feet and their numbers plummeted. They essentially lost the delta for nesting purposes.
So now they use the island but it can only fit a small amount of nesting pairs. I think the duskys numbers are better than they were 25 years ago, but don’t poison the duskys.
The farmers use hunting, sound cannons, bald eagle decoys, atvs, dogs, and lasers to protect the crop from geese.
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temporal1
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
Dr Alveda King speaks to this madness. Priorities, folks.
“Dr. Alveda King: Northam needs to apologize for agreeing to kill babies in the womb“
abortion proponents want to convince the unborn are not human, not persons.
most people everywhere know the preborn are humans, in varying stages of development.
outside of political lobbies $$, humanity of the unborn is not a debate.
but, blackface.
blackface is ALWAYS makeup or paint. it’s never human. i’m not a proponent.
but, neither do i find these things (blackface/abortion) in any way comparable.
evidently, neither does Dr A King. esp not decades-old teen stuff.
o.and. “be careful what you wish for.”
on my part, i see nothing to be gained by Northam’s resignation over this.
those coming up behind him are likely “worse,” not better, on contentious policies.
“Dr. Alveda King: Northam needs to apologize for agreeing to kill babies in the womb“
on my mind ..Feb. 04, 2019 - 3:12 - As pressure intensives for the Virginia governor to resign over a racist photo in his yearbook, the niece of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is focusing on the governor's remarks on late-term abortion.
abortion proponents want to convince the unborn are not human, not persons.
most people everywhere know the preborn are humans, in varying stages of development.
outside of political lobbies $$, humanity of the unborn is not a debate.
but, blackface.
blackface is ALWAYS makeup or paint. it’s never human. i’m not a proponent.
but, neither do i find these things (blackface/abortion) in any way comparable.
evidently, neither does Dr A King. esp not decades-old teen stuff.
o.and. “be careful what you wish for.”
on my part, i see nothing to be gained by Northam’s resignation over this.
those coming up behind him are likely “worse,” not better, on contentious policies.
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temporal1
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
For ragpicker, from another thread:
Errors in moral reasoning / haithabu
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=727
OP, Page 1: August 2017
Page 2:
Errors in moral reasoning / haithabu
http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=727
OP, Page 1: August 2017
haithabu wrote:I'm putting this under Current Events because it is highly pertinent to what is going on in American society right now.
Here are some common fallacies or errors I see people committing in assessing the right or wrong in various situations. This is not some theoretical philosophical discussion but I see them has having the potential to lead to real evil and disorder in society.
1) That moral responsibility is a zero sum game.
There is a tendency to interpret the criticism of one aspect of a position or action or event as a corresponding support for or justification for the other side. We see this repeated over and over in the near universal criticism of Trump's statements on Charlottesville. I myself just got my feathers singed on FB in trying to make what some others deemed to be inappropriate moral distinctions. But God judged Adam and Eve and the serpent separately for their respective sins without assigning any one credit for the contribution of others, and so He will each of us.
People who rely on the zero sum concept for self-justification are less likely to examine themselves for wrong actions and attitudes and are more likely to judge others harshly.
2) That passion is an index of virtue.
That your commitment to a value and therefore your virtue is measured by how vociferously and how intemperately you advocate for it. But I believe that moral reason is like a computer: it doesn't work properly over a certain temperature. In watching the storms of emotion rage through the body public today I am reminded of W.B. Yeats' words:
Movements which elevate passion in moral, religious or political questions are more likely to be complacent about extreme actions by their members and even though the majority may be otherwise reasonable people, the more extreme members tend to set the direction for the rest because they are assigned the moral high ground within the movement and are thus given the capacity to shame the more moderate members into following them or at least not opposing them.The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
3) A failure to balance values - the idea that one value should be supreme over others.
I think of justice and mercy as values which are conceptually opposed. Justice means to give to someone what is due them for their wrong actions. Mercy means to refrain from doing so. Yet both are necessary and the moral task of humanity under God is to balance the two. An exclusive focus on one over the other leads to objectively evil outcomes.
The same thing applies to human rights codes. A code contains a laundry list of rights and they are all listed co-equally, but there are various situations where different rights come into conflict. It is the job of courts to balance them in an equitable way. If the court were to privilege one right absolutely over another, the second right would be on its way to being nullified or marginalized.
4) ...and that therefore the end justifies the means.
If one value or cause reigns supreme in the moral universe, then petty considerations of reason, truth, integrity, fairness, compassion or legality may be subordinated to that pursuit. Stalin or Lenin are variously reported to have said "You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs". The irony in their case is that though millions of eggs were broken, the omelette never arrived.
The problem with this thinking occurs on several levels:
a) The supreme Good that is pursued in the case of a utopian or millenarian or morally perfectionistic movement never arrives. It is either unattainable or the movement moves on in pursuit of ever higher levels of purity. In the end the movement breaks down and its adherents find that they have committed real evil in exchange for an illusionary good.
b) It degrades the person morally. He may persuade himself that these tactics are necessary to achieve his Good, but in the end he becomes his tactics or he becomes what he habitually does.
c) It is immoral (I would say wicked) because the practitioner of these tactics in effect is penalizing his opponents for their virtues. The pushing aside of certain values may give the activist a momentary advantage over his opponents - but only because they are not doing the same themselves. So someone who is committed to telling only the truth is punished for that because no matter what the truth is, the liar can tell a better story.
d) Which leads to the moral degradation of society as those depreciated values go out the window on all sides. Some may think of this as a temporary price to pay on the way to victory, but a society which loses the values of truth, integrity, fairness, civility, social peace and tolerance will not quickly recover them. A generation after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia still struggles to recover the freedoms and rule of law which were denied to it by the Bolsheviks.
5) Moral supremacism - the temptation to think that there is no wisdom or virtue or good faith on the other side of an issue.
Another word for it might be moral narcissism, only this is a narcissism which takes place on a collective level rather than just on an individual level.
This attitude makes its holders correction proof. It impedes their goals by creating unnecessary conflict and resistance to their ideas. Any movement which runs on this basis finds itself splitting into factions over time because its adherents will apply the same intolerance for dissent toward each other as they do toward people outside the movement.
I wrote in another post about "gratuitous hatred" which according to the Talmud was the cause for the destruction of the Jewish nation. The rabbis go on to say that this mutual hatred between Jews took the form of various faction disputing, then fighting, then hunting each others' members down over the question of who was the better Jew. Isn't this what is happening today? That Americans are starting look at each other with fear and loathing over the matter of who is the "better Jew". Or more accurately, who is the better white American.
6) Language abuse to muddy the water. Strictly speaking these are not usually errors but deliberate strategy. But for those who are taken in by them it does lead to errors in moral reasoning.
One is the use of constructive language to describe values, so that terms like "love", "Justice" and "tolerance" are used with special ideologically constructed meanings which are different from, and in some cases opposed to their common everyday meaning. This is wrong because unless those special definitions are made explicit they are deceiving to ordinary folk. They are often used manipulatively to put opponents into a false position where because they oppose the specific application which is being advocated, they are portrayed as being against the value altogether.
Related to that is the use of baggage filled cant phrases to express a position without actually reasoning it out or fitting it to the circumstances. "Person of color" is one such. It immediately invokes a narrative of oppressor and oppressed which is intended to produce a certain reflexive response to any situation where it is applied.
Both of these practices are described in detail by George Orwell under the heading of "Newspeak".
7) Outsourcing moral reasoning to others.
The idea than a group as a whole has a truer moral instinct than any individual in it is based in part on the idea of the wisdom of crowds. However studies where this has been tested for quantifiable matters (the only way this theory can really be tested) have shown that the principle only works when people reach their own conclusions individually without referring to others. So I suggest that the path to collective moral wisdom always runs through each individual's own moral compass.
When people look to the group itself as the ultimate moral arbiter, then its "wisdom" becomes an artifact of the views of its more dominant or vocal members and the benefit of collective wisdom is lost. In some cases, a relatively small but cohesive and coordinated vocal faction can create an apparent consensus where there is none and lead the group in a direction where most of its members in fact do not want to go.
Part of this view is rooted in my personal experience. As someone who was a socially awkward outsider, I learned in middle school that the group was not to be trusted; that individuals who were quite civil one on one could become publicly cruel while in the group setting. If the people I knew while growing up were at their worst in the group, why should I look to the group for my moral cues?
And looking at recent history: those who stood against Hitler (since everyone is talking about Hitler nowadays) did so in spite of, not because of the apparent social consensus around them. Those who went along did so because they did not trust their own moral instincts over the apparent values of their neighbours.
Robert wrote:Well, I clicked the heart about 10 times. It just toggled on and off, but I felt better.
I may sticky this and lock it. This is how much "I" agree with it.
But locking it would just be a way of controlling conversation, so that is out.
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Page 10:haithabu wrote:Thanks for attempting to focus this thread on the original post, Max. I hope you succeed.
i wrote:
Bears repeating.
And, now there is separate category for Current Events!
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ragpicker
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
I'm still fascinated at the silence of the leftists who claim the name of Christ on my request. is it because they don't trust me? I tried to be safe. Is it because they smell a trap? I tried to make it so as to not be a trap. One of our resident leftists even showed up, but declined to condemn the insanity; rather choosing to merely comment on the status of the bill. maybe my question wasn't clear. Maybe, it's as my son insisted, that there's no way for me to posit the question without an inherent trap. I don't know. I tried to operate in good faith. Unless someone can help me understand how my question was flawed, or some other flaw, I am going to note this, and it will become further understanding of the leftists. That was not my intent. Pwerhaps I was stupid to think we could at least publicly agree on such clear cut good/evil.
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Bootstrap
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
Leftists who claim the name of Christ?ragpicker wrote:I'm still fascinated at the silence of the leftists who claim the name of Christ on my request. is it because they don't trust me? I tried to be safe. Is it because they smell a trap?
When did earthworms become the test of true Christianity? How does saving earthworms kill babies? Why is this particular law important for the Kingdom of God?
When it comes down to it, I think a lot of Christians are conflating right-wing politics with Christianity. And anyone who doesn't go along with that gets labeled a leftist. Meanwhile, people wed to left-wing politics call me a conservative. I just call myself a Christian. I don't know anything about the law in this post, but I'm pretty sure it is not the test of true Christianity.
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MaxPC
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
Indeed, the silence is deafening. Rather than admitting that abortion is evil and thus admitting up front and clearly that their favorite political party advocates evil, they:ragpicker wrote:I'm still fascinated at the silence of the leftists who claim the name of Christ on my request. is it because they don't trust me? I tried to be safe. Is it because they smell a trap? I tried to make it so as to not be a trap. One of our resident leftists even showed up, but declined to condemn the insanity; rather choosing to merely comment on the status of the bill. maybe my question wasn't clear. Maybe, it's as my son insisted, that there's no way for me to posit the question without an inherent trap. I don't know. I tried to operate in good faith. Unless someone can help me understand how my question was flawed, or some other flaw, I am going to note this, and it will become further understanding of the leftists. That was not my intent. Pwerhaps I was stupid to think we could at least publicly agree on such clear cut good/evil.
-Attack Christians who decry the evils of the liberal Democrat platform, claiming that the Christians are Republicans and mistaking politics for religion.
-Change the subject in content or angle.
But still no statement saying that their party’s push to legalize abortion up to and including birth is blatantly evil. Yes, the silence is deafening because it is they who defend their favorite party at the cost of innocent lives. They have placed politics above God’s law.
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Dan Z
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
I pretty sure I'm standing to the left of you brother Ragpicker (honestly, that's not hard to do
) but I've never considered myself a "leftist." Not sure who you are targeting with your question. In any case, my take: infanticide is one of this nation's most grave modern travesties, vermicide might be an important issue in terms of environmental health (honestly - I haven't read the bill), but is certainly not anywhere near the same moral significance as abortion.
The reason you probably haven't gotten more response from "leftists" is 1) sadly some Christians on the left have bought into the whole progressive package and developed a rationale for supporting a woman's right to choose abortion or 2) pro-life progressives (yes, they exist) might suspect, by the way that you framed the question, that they are being baited (to be made an example of) rather than invited into an honest discussion. Ironically, by not responding I see they are being made an example of anyway.
The reason you probably haven't gotten more response from "leftists" is 1) sadly some Christians on the left have bought into the whole progressive package and developed a rationale for supporting a woman's right to choose abortion or 2) pro-life progressives (yes, they exist) might suspect, by the way that you framed the question, that they are being baited (to be made an example of) rather than invited into an honest discussion. Ironically, by not responding I see they are being made an example of anyway.
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appleman2006
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
The law about worms. Nope. No one is saying it is. The other law which is the one he was asking about I think might be.Bootstrap wrote:Leftists who claim the name of Christ?ragpicker wrote:I'm still fascinated at the silence of the leftists who claim the name of Christ on my request. is it because they don't trust me? I tried to be safe. Is it because they smell a trap?
When did earthworms become the test of true Christianity? How does saving earthworms kill babies? Why is this particular law important for the Kingdom of God?
When it comes down to it, I think a lot of Christians are conflating right-wing politics with Christianity. And anyone who doesn't go along with that gets labeled a leftist. Meanwhile, people wed to left-wing politics call me a conservative. I just call myself a Christian. I don't know anything about the law in this post, but I'm pretty sure it is not the test of true Christianity.
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Bootstrap
Re: Easier to kill babies, harder to kill worms?
I don't know much about that law either. I know I'm against abortion.appleman2006 wrote:The law about worms. Nope. No one is saying it is. The other law which is the one he was asking about I think might be.Bootstrap wrote:When it comes down to it, I think a lot of Christians are conflating right-wing politics with Christianity. And anyone who doesn't go along with that gets labeled a leftist. Meanwhile, people wed to left-wing politics call me a conservative. I just call myself a Christian. I don't know anything about the law in this post, but I'm pretty sure it is not the test of true Christianity.
This testimony seems to say that an abortion would be allowed up to birth even for just vaguely defined "mental health" reasons, it is probably really bad:
[video][/video]
But I have to admit that nothing in the earlier thread inspired me to even look up the bill. Worms are often used as bait, and that seemed to be their purpose in this thread.
I would be more likely to be interested in a thread that asks how Christians who are opposed to abortion can work together to do something. A thread in which Christians who are opposed to abortion can assume we are on the same side and focus on what we should be doing.
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