Josh wrote:The rapture is wildly unbiblical concept, so I would speculate for a very long stretch of time before it happens. (As in, never.)
I realize rapture is a word not found in scripture but after five hearts on a post containing this above quote I had to ask: What is the rapture?
All's I was ever told is that the rapture is this:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
So do people not agree with the scripture or does the word rapture mean something different in Anabaptist theology?
I have the same understanding of it as your quote suggests. Note that the text does not say WHERE we will be with the LORD - that is not the important part. What is important is that we will be with him. Why are some so preoccupied as to whether it will be on the earth, or a new earth at a later time, or for eternity in heaven? Maybe the 'golden streets' are more of an attraction than the KING?
[Just in case some think it might be important, I grew up in the MB church (Mennonite Brethren), which is in the Dutch Mennonite tradition, not the Swiss Brethren tradition.]
Gathering my scattered thoughts...
My understanding is that calling 1 Thess. 4:17 the "rapture" is something introduced by Dispensational Premillenialism, a very new (1800s Plymouth Brethren(?)) eschatological viewpoint. This was not part of historic Anabaptism; it entered the Mennonite church during the Fundamentalist era.
I remember one conservative Mennonite holder of this viewpoint saying the "church" is going to be "raptured up" and given rewards, while those left behind will be judged. Also something about how Christians are going to execute God's vengeance on the others(?).
I strongly disagree with that, because when I read Romans 2 or Matthew 25 I find that God will render to every man according to his deeds (i.e., there is not some group going to be exempt). Also, the bit about Christians executing God's vengeance is the opposite of nonresistance. ("Never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God. Vengeance is mine, I will repay.")
Now, people with eschatological views other than Dispensational Premillenialism do recognize 1 Thess 4:17, but would not talk about a "rapture". For example, I believe that as part of Jesus returning to render to every man according to his deeds, His disciples who are living will be caught up to meet him in the air. But I do not have anything to do with "dispensations," or saying that "The Antichrist is alive today", etc. etc.
Josh wrote:The rapture is wildly unbiblical concept, so I would speculate for a very long stretch of time before it happens. (As in, never.)
I realize rapture is a word not found in scripture but after five hearts on a post containing this above quote I had to ask: What is the rapture?
All's I was ever told is that the rapture is this:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be with the LORD.
So do people not agree with the scripture or does the word rapture mean something different in Anabaptist theology?
We do not use the word rapture but we focus very much on the above verse. Our minister has said Jesus won't be coming back on earth - we will go to "meet Him in the air."
I think there is confusion here with what exactly is meant by the term. Most who argue against the idea of a 'rapture' (I'm referring to discussions I've heard other than here on this site) are responding to the idea that Christ will return two more times, i.e., once 'in the air' before the tribulation period, and then afterwards, to the earth. I also think that people often use the term Pre-Mil, and are really reffing to Pre-Trib. The angel who appeared to the disciples when they saw Jesus ascend into heaven were told that he would return in the same manner in which he had gone up. This text does not explicitly say that he will return to the earth, but I think that it is pretty clearly implied, or at least that is the logical conclusion the disciples would have been expected to make.
So if your working definition does not require this "double coming", please give us your understanding of the term, because I think that that was the position of those who are said to have "invented this doctrine in around 1830", and much of the defense of the doctrine which one hears now-a-days also involves that belief (which I personally do not share).
Rev 6:12-17,
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Seems like almost all Christians believe this to be Jesus' return. Unbelievers will.
Of all the people groups described, who isn't included?
Obviously every person on the face of the earth is terrified beyond anything before, ever.
Would this include the Christians, Christ's bride?
Not possible, His children are going to rejoice to see Him come and rise up to meet Him in the air.
It seems like that is one of the things that strikes such terror into the heart of all who remain on the earth, they will see Christians leaving and rising into the air, (1 Thess 4:15-18) and when the realization of them not going up too and the implications of that sink in fear, unimaginable terror sets in.
I wouldn't trade places with them for all the riches in the world.
So do people not agree with the scripture or does the word rapture mean something different in Anabaptist theology?
Postby cmbl » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:51 pm
Gathering my scattered thoughts...
My understanding is that calling 1 Thess. 4:17 the "rapture" is something introduced by Dispensational Premillenialism, a very new (1800s Plymouth Brethren(?)) eschatological viewpoint. This was not part of historic Anabaptism; it entered the Mennonite church during the Fundamentalist era.
I do not mean to begin a new 'rabbit trail,' but this example of 'Anabaptist theology' of the meaning of the rapture illustrates something that has been getting to me for some time. I understand there are beliefs and practices that perhaps are non-negotiable, that help to define who the Anabaptist's are. In other areas, such as eschatological viewpoints, what's wrong with having a more open mind? I mean, if we applied such closed-mindedness to other areas of our Mennonite history, we'd still have spittoons on Mennonite pulpits!
I have viewed Truth as something that perhaps the Mennonites and Anabaptists do not necessarily have the corner of the market on. I remember debating a friend from childhood who probably to this day declares there will be a Trump after the last trump. A few years ago I read an article explaining the Jew's Feast of Trumpets. It went on to explain that there is an unmistakable event that marks the end of that feast called the Last Trump (it has been occurring since Bible times). Having been intrigued by it, I got permission from a Jewish friend of mine to attend one of their Feasts of Trumpets. I discovered another interesting fact while there: all their other feasts point to events, either historically or in the future. Apart from helping to mark their 'New Year,' they admit the feast of trumpets does not point to a particular historical or future event that they know of. Disclaimer: Don't any MN reader say I have here made a prediction of the rapture, because I haven't! However, in some way I don't understand, I do believe the apostle Paul's reference to the last trump must be related to the Jewish Feast of Trumpets.
