A Mennonite view of divorce and remarriage

[Bootstrap]

Boot: I cut and pasted Thayer's definition directly from my computer Bible.

Yes - I thought that was the case. But that's not actually Thayer's definition - now I'm wondering what the various "Thayer's" lexicons on the Internet actually represent. The original Thayer's is available, and the definition is quite different. I had assumed they simply stripped out the Greek, but it's really significantly different from the original.

The original Thayer's looks like the definitions in a handful of other lexicons I have.

I also noticed this ad for an electronic edition of the Thayer's lexicon I quoted from:

Unlike other heavily edited or abridged electronic editions of Thayer's Lexicon, this edition is true to the original -- complete with extra-biblical citations, etymological information, analysis of textual variations, etc. Includes Strong’s numbers, so that it may be used in conjunction with Key-numbered Bible texts.

For over a century, Thayer's has been lauded as one of the best New Testament lexicons available for any student of New Testament Greek. This lexicon provides dictionary definitions for each word and relates each word to its New Testament usage and categorizes its nuances of meaning. It also offers exhaustive coverage of New Testament Greek words, as well as extensive quotation of extra-biblical word usage and background sources consulted and quoted.

I know you quoted it in good faith. But it's not actually Thayer's lexicon.

[lesterb]

Boot: I cut and pasted Thayer's definition directly from my computer Bible.

Yes - I thought that was the case. But that's not actually Thayer's definition - now I'm wondering what the various "Thayer's" lexicons on the Internet actually represent. The original Thayer's is available, and the definition is quite different. I had assumed they simply stripped out the Greek, but it's really significantly different from the original.

The original Thayer's looks like the definitions in a handful of other lexicons I have.

I also noticed this ad for an electronic edition of the Thayer's lexicon I quoted from:

Unlike other heavily edited or abridged electronic editions of Thayer's Lexicon, this edition is true to the original -- complete with extra-biblical citations, etymological information, analysis of textual variations, etc. Includes Strong’s numbers, so that it may be used in conjunction with Key-numbered Bible texts.

For over a century, Thayer's has been lauded as one of the best New Testament lexicons available for any student of New Testament Greek. This lexicon provides dictionary definitions for each word and relates each word to its New Testament usage and categorizes its nuances of meaning. It also offers exhaustive coverage of New Testament Greek words, as well as extensive quotation of extra-biblical word usage and background sources consulted and quoted.

I know you quoted it in good faith. But it's not actually Thayer's lexicon.

Wow. I wonder how many of those $30K packages they sell! I'll have to add it to my Christmas wish list. Maybe my wife will feel generous.

[lesterb]

I know you quoted it in good faith. But it's not actually Thayer's lexicon.

Hmm. I guess I'll have to start crediting E-Sword instead of Thayer. I wonder how many other sources have been changed. Like Robertson's Word Pictures. I use both of those a fair bit.

[MaxPC]

...

I feel that too often the focus goes to remarriage in these discussions, rather than remaining on divorce. The Pharisees were not asking if it's okay to remarry. They were asking if it is okay to divorce. And that is the question that Jesus answered. Going beyond that is actually arguing from silence and using men's reasoning.

I will admit that the Pharisee's may have been assuming that divorce meant the freedom to remarry. But that is going beyond the context of the discussion. Jesus said that divorce is wrong, except for unfaithfulness. Paul added abandonment to that equation. BUT NEITHER OF THEM SAID A WORD ABOUT WHETHER THIS INCLUDED THE RIGHT TO REMARRY OR NOT. When you say that these scriptures "assume" this right, you are making an assumption based on silence.

Assumptions based on silence are pretty dicey at the best of times. When there is a chance that they might lead you into adultery, then this is doubly true.

Jesus also did say that "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."
...
Thanks to all of you who have pitched in help clarify the OP. I don't want this thread to be one of condemnation. However, I felt that the direction being taken by the Anabaptist view of Divorce... thread was leading to some unbiblical conclusions and thought that should be counter balanced for readers who might find the thread on Google, etc.

Excellent thread, Lester. I appreciate and agree with the Conservative Mennonite view regarding divorce and your efforts to reveal authentic Mennonite teaching. I also appreciate Ernie's and the rest of the authentic Mennonite input. It has been both helpful and edifying.

[Josh]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

[Bootstrap]

I feel that too often the focus goes to remarriage in these discussions, rather than remaining on divorce. The Pharisees were not asking if it's okay to remarry. They were asking if it is okay to divorce. And that is the question that Jesus answered. Going beyond that is actually arguing from silence and using men's reasoning.

I will admit that the Pharisee's may have been assuming that divorce meant the freedom to remarry. But that is going beyond the context of the discussion. Jesus said that divorce is wrong, except for unfaithfulness. Paul added abandonment to that equation. BUT NEITHER OF THEM SAID A WORD ABOUT WHETHER THIS INCLUDED THE RIGHT TO REMARRY OR NOT. When you say that these scriptures "assume" this right, you are making an assumption based on silence.

I agree that the focus is on divorce, and I think that most of the disagreement is about things that are not directly addressed by Scripture. But I also think Jesus talks about remarriage - in fact, each time that he is asked about divorce, his answer involves divorce and remarriage, they are clearly closely linked. Not only in the minds of the Pharisees, who are asking about Deuteronomy 24, but also in the answers of Jesus. I don't think they can be cleanly separated. Context matters, and this is an important part of the context.

Regardless, consider Matthew 19:

And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.

If he divorces his wife for sexual immorality, then marries another, Jesus does not call it adultery. I think he is saying this:

IF he divorces his wife AND marries another
AND her sexual unfaithfulness was not the reason
THEN it is adultery

That's really not the same as this:

IF he divorces his wife
AND her sexual unfaithfulness was not the reason
THEN it is adultery
BUT if he marries another it is adultery anyway

I can't see a "simple reading of Scripture" that understands this passage the second way.

[Josh]

I wish we could talk about the elephant in the room of how tolerating divorce and remarriage would ruin our Plain communities, but without having to twist and stretch scripture to do so.

[GaryK]

Where does the Bible ever refer to marriages as invalid? It's a concept I can't really find in the New Testament.

Luke 16:18
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

It seems to me Jesus is implying in this verse that it shouldn't be called marriage but rather adultery. What is the definition of adultery?

[Bootstrap]

Hmm. I guess I'll have to start crediting E-Sword instead of Thayer. I wonder how many other sources have been changed. Like Robertson's Word Pictures. I use both of those a fair bit.

It's a good question. I like Robertson's Word Pictures a lot too. And I had also assumed this was the same as the English definitions of Thayer's - I should check other definitions to see if they are as different as this one.

[Bootstrap]

It seems to me Jesus is implying in this verse that it shouldn't be called marriage but rather adultery. What is the definition of adultery?

Breaking the marriage. And certainly marrying someone else breaks your first marriage.