appleman2006 wrote:
Blaming the person that has been hurt for a lack of an ongoing relationship when the hurting person has shown no sense of remorse is a horrible form of abuse.
We should always be willing to forgive. Of that there can be no debate. And I believe we can get to the place in our lives where we can honestly totally forgive someone that totally hates us or has severely harmed us. In fact I think we must as Christians. But that still does not mean that we will automatically have a close relationship or even any relationship with that unrepentant person.
Christ is our example in that. He is always ready to forgive. He offers that unconditionally. But unless we desire to have a relationship with him and are truly sorry there will be no relationship and we will never benefit from that forgiveness.
I punched the heart on this post, but I do have one difference - I am not aware of any Scripture which instructs us to ask for forgiveness from someone we have wronged. It DOES instruct us to confess our sins, and instructs us to forgive the one who has wronged US. I think that asking for forgiveness is selfish. Forgiveness is something I want from the person I have already wronged - it makes me feel better. But does it help the other person? I think that forgiveness is something that should be freely offered, and asking for it just seems to create pressure for the person to say "I forgive you", often w/o giving them the time to work through it, or to see that we are actually sorry, and repentant.
I feel these two thoughts do resonate with each other. Appleman is talking about a relationship between the two parties and you're talking about a similar dynamic yet from the perspective of each individual. YMMV.
Yes. It was the small bit you omitted that was my only hesitation for a full on heart punch w/o additional comment.
appleman2006 wrote:Quote
"I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong."'
I tend to agree. However having a good two way long term relationship with someone that has hurt you but does not acknowledge his wrong and ask for forgiveness will be impossible.
Neto wrote:
I punched the heart on this post, but I do have one difference - I am not aware of any Scripture which instructs us to ask for forgiveness from someone we have wronged. It DOES instruct us to confess our sins, and instructs us to forgive the one who has wronged US. I think that asking for forgiveness is selfish. Forgiveness is something I want from the person I have already wronged - it makes me feel better. But does it help the other person? I think that forgiveness is something that should be freely offered, and asking for it just seems to create pressure for the person to say "I forgive you", often w/o giving them the time to work through it, or to see that we are actually sorry, and repentant.
I feel these two thoughts do resonate with each other. Appleman is talking about a relationship between the two parties and you're talking about a similar dynamic yet from the perspective of each individual. YMMV.
Yes. It was the small bit you omitted that was my only hesitation for a full on heart punch w/o additional comment.
appleman2006 wrote:Quote
"I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong."'
I tend to agree. However having a good two way long term relationship with someone that has hurt you but does not acknowledge his wrong and ask for forgiveness will be impossible.
I can understand Appleman's point as I have seen abusers use this push for forgiveness to force access to their victims in order to continue the abuse. It's much more common than most people realize. It's an insidious manipulation by the abuser.
Neto wrote:I punched the heart on this post, but I do have one difference - I am not aware of any Scripture which instructs us to ask for forgiveness from someone we have wronged. It DOES instruct us to confess our sins, and instructs us to forgive the one who has wronged US. I think that asking for forgiveness is selfish. Forgiveness is something I want from the person I have already wronged - it makes me feel better. But does it help the other person? I think that forgiveness is something that should be freely offered, and asking for it just seems to create pressure for the person to say "I forgive you", often w/o giving them the time to work through it, or to see that we are actually sorry, and repentant.
Neto, I really like how you said this. Indeed, there's no biblical requirement to "ask for forgiveness". Instead, we should simply confess when we have wronged someone, sometimes to the person themselves, and we should always find a way to reconcile / make it right (even though sometimes there might be nothing we can do).
appleman2006 wrote:Quote
"I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong."'
I tend to agree. However having a good two way long term relationship with someone that has hurt you but does not acknowledge his wrong and ask for forgiveness will be impossible. It does take two people willing to engage to have a relationship.
Blaming the person that has been hurt for a lack of an ongoing relationship when the hurting person has shown no sense of remorse is a horrible form of abuse.
We should always be willing to forgive. Of that there can be no debate. And I believe we can get to the place in our lives where we can honestly totally forgive someone that totally hates us or has severely harmed us. In fact I think we must as Christians. But that still does not mean that we will automatically have a close relationship or even any relationship with that unrepentant person.
Christ is our example in that. He is always ready to forgive. He offers that unconditionally. But unless we desire to have a relationship with him and are truly sorry there will be no relationship and we will never benefit from that forgiveness.
I punched the heart on this post, but I do have one difference - I am not aware of any Scripture which instructs us to ask for forgiveness from someone we have wronged. It DOES instruct us to confess our sins, and instructs us to forgive the one who has wronged US. I think that asking for forgiveness is selfish. Forgiveness is something I want from the person I have already wronged - it makes me feel better. But does it help the other person? I think that forgiveness is something that should be freely offered, and asking for it just seems to create pressure for the person to say "I forgive you", often w/o giving them the time to work through it, or to see that we are actually sorry, and repentant.
You make a really good point and I do not disagree with this at all. Simply asking for forgiveness without truly having repented is meaningless. And it certainly can be very manipulative. Being sorry unconditionally sorry for one's wrongs which includes a determination not to repeat them, is certainly what scripture teaches.
I wonder sometimes in our teaching on forgiveness we have negated this important fact and have used the 70 x 7 scenario to imply that true repentance is not that big a deal and that the ultimate burden starts to actually fall on the one that is wronged. Of course forgiving others is a must when we have been wronged but whether we forgive or not has no bearing whatsoever on the importance of true repentance in the erring one's life.
My opinion is that anytime we find ourselves demanding forgiveness we should take a real good look in the mirror and check whether we truly have repented.
recently, i read someone’s view that we should not confuse our forgiveness of one another’s sins/crimes with God’s forgiveness that promises eternal salvation.
our human ability to forgive has more to do with our salvation than the offender’s salvation, which is not in our control.
on this forum, there have been discussions of how forgiveness does not always equate to full reconciliation of the former relationship, or, escape from justice.
example, child abusers can be forgiven, that does not mean they should be allowed to continue to work with children, or even parent, esp not without careful supervision.
temporal1 wrote:recently, i read someone’s view that we should not confuse our forgiveness of one another’s sins/crimes with God’s forgiveness that promises eternal salvation.
Maybe, but when we can honestly pray like Jesus did, "Father, forgive them..." I think that is a sign we have forgiven.
I think it is healthy to recognise that evil people, or people fallen into sin, often are hellbound, and to pray to God to have mercy on their souls and rescue them, even as he did to each of us. All of us have been evil and fallen into sin at some point in time. Thinking about lost souls can often do a lot to help get one's own heart right if one is struggling with bitterness and resentment.
MN (formerly MD) has had periods in its history where the hostility, disrespect, and cyncism is stronger than at other times. Now seems to be one of those times when it is stronger.
The last while, many of the comments on MN feel a lot like the comment section following a FoxNews or CNN political article.
Waking up and reading this kind of stuff on MN is not very inspiring at all.
So I will be mostly taking a break from MN for awhile. You can let me know if this changes and I may be back.
I haven't seen the hostility myself - maybe it is because I avoid the political stuff, and also the old worn out dead horses that had to be dug up to be beaten some more.
Neto wrote:I haven't seen the hostility myself - maybe it is because I avoid the political stuff, and also the old worn out dead horses that had to be dug up to be beaten some more.
I don't venture over to the Political forum myself.
