Can we make MN less hostile?

[Bootstrap]

Sometimes it's easier to move forward and try to avoid repeating the past. Sometimes it's hard to even agree on what happened in the past. And pragmatically, not everyone involved in the conflicts is open to discussing their behavior.

So I think moving forward without hostility and flagging posts to let the moderators move in is a good way to go.

[temporal1]

Sometimes it's easier to move forward and try to avoid repeating the past.
Sometimes it's hard to even agree on what happened in the past.
And pragmatically, not everyone involved in the conflicts is open to discussing their behavior.

So I think moving forward without hostility and flagging posts to let the moderators move in is a good way to go.

“Sometimes it's hard to even agree on what happened in the past. ”
Quite important.
Just because others do not “hash out” every alleged detail, in the moment, it does not mean there is agreement, at all. Silence does not auto-translate to agreement.

There are lots of reasons for no response.
One is, no time or energy for it.
Another is, taking time to think it through.
Another, the statement may seem so obviously wrong, it’s not deserving of more attention.
Allowing for God’s Time to work things out is very real in many folks’ lives, including mine.
Another is, having strong opposing ideas but not feeling confident in one’s ability to find good words to convey the intended point (which often leads to more+unwanted rancor).
There are lots more reasons for “no response.”

Not everyone believes “winning” on internet forums, or in internet comments, is a good use of time.
“Having the last word,” in human casual discussion .. probably is not a good pursuit.

As george recently wrote:
“Your argument is not with me” ..
Page 12 / http://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=110

[shadrach]

However, the past does still exist - and we have some rather big elephants in the room, such as an inability on the part of some people to acknowledge that they've done and said very hurtful things, and then attacking ideas like creating an "emotionally safe place" on MN when any attempts are done to prevent hurtful things from continuing to happen.

I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not everyone believes “winning” on internet forums, or in internet comments, is a good use of time.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone did believe that?

[silentreader]

However, the past does still exist - and we have some rather big elephants in the room, such as an inability on the part of some people to acknowledge that they've done and said very hurtful things, and then attacking ideas like creating an "emotionally safe place" on MN when any attempts are done to prevent hurtful things from continuing to happen.

I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not everyone believes “winning” on internet forums, or in internet comments, is a good use of time.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone did believe that?

Interesting statement considering some other non-MN things going on, I don't necessarily disagree but would be interested if you'd care to expand your thoughts on that.

[appleman2006]

Quote
"I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong."'

I tend to agree. However having a good two way long term relationship with someone that has hurt you but does not acknowledge his wrong and ask for forgiveness will be impossible. It does take two people willing to engage to have a relationship.
Blaming the person that has been hurt for a lack of an ongoing relationship when the hurting person has shown no sense of remorse is a horrible form of abuse.

We should always be willing to forgive. Of that there can be no debate. And I believe we can get to the place in our lives where we can honestly totally forgive someone that totally hates us or has severely harmed us. In fact I think we must as Christians. But that still does not mean that we will automatically have a close relationship or even any relationship with that unrepentant person.

Christ is our example in that. He is always ready to forgive. He offers that unconditionally. But unless we desire to have a relationship with him and are truly sorry there will be no relationship and we will never benefit from that forgiveness.

[shadrach]

I don't necessarily disagree but would be interested if you'd care to expand your thoughts on that.

appleman did that for me, and said it better than I would. I wasn't referring to the quality of the relationship of the person who hurt me, but the condition of my heart.

When I wrote that statement, I thought of Christ's forgiveness and our response to that, and didn't know how to explain that, but appleman made that parallel very clearly.

[temporal1]

I don't necessarily disagree but would be interested if you'd care to expand your thoughts on that.

appleman did that for me, and said it better than I would.

I wasn't referring to the quality of the relationship of the person who hurt me, but the condition of my heart.

When I wrote that statement, I thought of Christ's forgiveness and our response to that, and didn't know how to explain that, but appleman made that parallel very clearly.

i agree with you.
there are at least a couple of meanings/uses of the word, “forgiveness,” it’s not always about the one who has harmed receiving redemption. the victim does not have to wait for the sinner, the burden can be lifted from the victim at any time, and, thankfully, often predates the act of the sinner seeking forgiveness. it’s a burden victims are not obligated to carry.

there can be 2 different things going on.
in my real life, i have been forgiven before i asked forgiveness, and, i have forgiven before being asked to forgive. i have experienced both, and, i have witnessed both, between others.

in my experience, when a sinner seeks forgiveness only to realize forgiveness was already granted, it can be sincerely humbling. it can create a mutual respect and trust no one could have ever imagined.

on this forum, i have learned more about the idea that forgiveness must be requested.
my takeaway is, there are at least two different possibilities, one does not eliminate the other.

[temporal1]

Not everyone believes “winning” on internet forums, or in internet comments, is a good use of time.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone did believe that?

it would be a different world, and, a good one.
i suppose i mostly believe this current mentality is a passing phase, connected to adapting to technology, as folks move beyond these primitive stages, better is possible.

new things usually take adjusting. we crawl before walking, etc.
lots of skinned knees along the way.

[Bootstrap]

Not everyone believes “winning” on internet forums, or in internet comments, is a good use of time.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone did believe that?

I suspect most people here do not want to win and do not want to get stuck in debates. I also think most people here want to be able to discuss topics, saying what they believe to be true, letting our understanding progress as the conversation goes on, without attacks or debate tactics.

So how can we make room for conversations between very different people to unfold over time, without forcing it into debate mode or personal attacks? We often do well at that, what is the difference between threads that do this well and threads that do not? They often have the same people in them.

Here's one thing I notice: one person will accuse the other of being defensive or having some attitude problem, turning what was a conversation into a conflict. Here's another thing I notice: a few people seem to be trying to collect dirt on others and will pull it out to get leverage over other people. These aren't things we would normally tolerate in face to face conversations among Christians.

[MaxPC]

Quote
"I don't think forgiveness is conditional to the person asking for it. Correct me if I'm wrong."'

I tend to agree. However having a good two way long term relationship with someone that has hurt you but does not acknowledge his wrong and ask for forgiveness will be impossible. It does take two people willing to engage to have a relationship.
Blaming the person that has been hurt for a lack of an ongoing relationship when the hurting person has shown no sense of remorse is a horrible form of abuse.

We should always be willing to forgive. Of that there can be no debate. And I believe we can get to the place in our lives where we can honestly totally forgive someone that totally hates us or has severely harmed us. In fact I think we must as Christians. But that still does not mean that we will automatically have a close relationship or even any relationship with that unrepentant person.

Christ is our example in that. He is always ready to forgive. He offers that unconditionally. But unless we desire to have a relationship with him and are truly sorry there will be no relationship and we will never benefit from that forgiveness.

I could not have said it better.