Can we make MN less hostile?

[MaxPC]

Robert, just as part of the conversation to give more of an accurate assessment: I'm not fixated on being right. I simply give correct information about the Catholic Church when there are misconceptions posted since I am the resident Catholic and canonist.

There have been long threads attacking me both on MD and MN by Boot and Josh that were not even grounded in charity and were based on their own beliefs and incorrect perceptions. Every time I would post to get some input from Anabaptists, they would attack yet again. I don't hold grudges yet it is important for that situation to be remembered so that it isn't allowed to happen again; as I've said, Robert, you have a life outside of the forum and once you recognized those behaviors for what they were, you stopped the harrassment. Others also called for a stop to it.

That said, on all other topics I give my two cents and let it go, knowing that not everyone sees from the same perspective. I will repeat my inquiry at times when I'm interested in a person's answer, simply because the individual to whom I address a post may not see it. We've seen that happen: people will be absent from the forum for a day or two and in the reading to catch up they will miss posts. That's normal.

I do like to inquire about Anabaptist perceptions simply because I feel this is something that not only my church but all churches would receive a benefit. The Anabaptist perspective brings a message sorely needed in this world and for one, I'm glad to see it continue.

At the end of the day as you pointed out, face to face is far better for interaction: I've seen this myself because on forums one cannot see the wry smile indicating a joke nor hear the tone of voice that is actually soft rather than harsh. Yet at this point and for many who live at a distance, a forum is all we have.
"God bless us every one." Tiny Tim

[Ernie]

I'm not fixated on being right. I simply give correct information about the Catholic Church when there are misconceptions posted since I am the resident Catholic and canonist.

I do like to inquire about Anabaptist perceptions simply because I feel this is something that not only my church but all churches would receive a benefit. The Anabaptist perspective brings a message sorely needed in this world and for one, I'm glad to see it continue.

One thing that I have learned over the last 12 years on MN and MD is that there are varied views of what Catholics believe and what Anabaptists believe.

So if you share your perspective about Catholicism, I take it as Max's concept of Catholicism. I don't necessarily interpret your perspective as an accurate depiction of Catholicism.

When I or Robert share about Anabaptism, it is our perspective of Anabaptism. I am only familiar with a small segment of views within Anabaptism. Someone has said that you can find an early Anabaptist who will agree with almost anything you believe.

So at the end of the day, I think it is more valuable to evaluate beliefs, ideas, values and concepts and then we have a basis for discussion.

[Bootstrap]

Robert, just as part of the conversation to give more of an accurate assessment: I'm not fixated on being right. I simply give correct information about the Catholic Church when there are misconceptions posted since I am the resident Catholic and canonist.

Hi Max,

First off, I assume that by posting in this thread you are open to feedback.

Accurate information is important, and I think it's great to refer us to Canon Law, the Catechism, and other official Catholic resources to correct misconceptions. If there's any question, we usually wind up turning to these official resources to clear it up. That's one way the Catholic Church is really quite different from Mennonites - we don't have a canon law.

I don't think anybody here considers you the sole authority on all Catholic questions. That's not a personal smear, that's just not the way most of us approach finding authoritative answers when there is any doubt. If I say something about the Greek text, someone else will ask a question or bring in more information, that's how we learn from each other.

If I want to know the official teaching of the Catholic Church, I will turn to these resources. And I do that mostly when you say that something is the official teaching of the church. That's different from saying what you believe.

There have been long threads attacking me both on MD and MN by Boot and Josh that were not even grounded in charity and were based on their own beliefs and incorrect perceptions. Every time I would post to get some input from Anabaptists, they would attack yet again. I don't hold grudges yet it is important for that situation to be remembered so that it isn't allowed to happen again; as I've said, Robert, you have a life outside of the forum and once you recognized those behaviors for what they were, you stopped the harrassment. Others also called for a stop to it.

I don't hold grudges either, but you keep bringing this up, so I should probably clarify: I'm not sure, but I assume that this is about the fake pictures on your website. I can still provide original the sources of most of those pictures - various museums, pictures taken of Amish, other photos available on the Internet. I posted it to MennoDiscuss, I think that's what you mean by "harassment". You originally came to us telling us tales of a plain Catholic community on very good terms with its Amish neighbors, nobody here has ever been able to locate various Amish or Mennonite people you have referred to.

I don't think you convinced many people. I think MD agreed it was time to stop. I rarely bring it up anymore, but when I try to guess what the "harsh lies" are that you are talking about, I assume that's what you mean. If you are talking about something else, I'd like to know what it is. When I went back and read the first 12 pages of Campground Ramblings, we didn't discuss this there, and those posts are 2 years old now.

That was years ago now. You've stopped telling these tales for the most part. I think it would be great to let that all fade into the past, but when you continue to bring it up, that makes it harder to do so. Maybe I should just flag those posts and let Robert handle them.

At the end of the day as you pointed out, face to face is far better for interaction: I've seen this myself because on forums one cannot see the wry smile indicating a joke nor hear the tone of voice that is actually soft rather than harsh. Yet at this point and for many who live at a distance, a forum is all we have.
"God bless us every one." Tiny Tim

Amen.

[ohio jones]

There are times in real life that something will pop up and I think you are the fist person I would take it to.

Would a less-hostile Mennonite forum actually need a "fist person"?

Pacifist.jpg (33.07 KiB) Viewed 680 times

[Bootstrap]

One thing that I have learned over the last 12 years on MN and MD is that there are varied views of what Catholics believe and what Anabaptists believe.

So if you share your perspective about Catholicism, I take it as Max's concept of Catholicism. I don't necessarily interpret your perspective as an accurate depiction of Catholicism.

Exactly.

If we want to know official teaching, we would look at Canon Law or the Catechism, but even then, many Catholics believe things different from official teaching.

When I or Robert share about Anabaptism, it is our perspective of Anabaptism. I am only familiar with a small segment of views within Anabaptism. Someone has said that you can find an early Anabaptist who will agree with almost anything you believe.

So at the end of the day, I think it is more valuable to evaluate beliefs, ideas, values and concepts and then we have a basis for discussion.

Very much so. And each of us is the ultimate authority on what we ourselves believe.

[Bootstrap]

A lot of what happens, not just here but other online forums, is personality types clash.

Boot, I am going to identify you here, but just as an example, not because this is bad about you. It is actually a really good thing in its place.

That's fine - I started this thread saying I wanted to learn better ways. I do hope anyone participating in this thread is open to having people suggest things. That includes me.

I do think I'm much more analytical than most, and that can lead to cross-chatter.

I have learned that in life people approach and deal with things much differently than I do. Because I am a feeler, I tend to think of how someone else is feeling and work from there. Because you are analytical, I think you tend to start there. Sometimes people just want to be heard. They do not always want to be corrected or showed they are wrong. They just want to speak. It helps to validate that they are actually human.

For me, it really does depend on the topic. How I feel matters more when talking through how best to handle relationships. How I feel about how much money is in my bank account matters too, but what that amount is doesn't depend on my feelings. There are matters of fact and matters of opinion.

To me, part of the problem is that some people will identify personally with some claim about textual criticism, satellite data, the Greek language, the official teaching of the Catholic, or some other matter of fact that is beyond what any one of us is likely to know. They have strong feelings about the kind of thing that they treat as their own personal feelings and their identity, and I think this kind of thing is more reliably treated as a matter of fact. I think it's helpful to be "matter of fact" about matters of fact.

Another part of the problem is that people often seem to hide their feelings and spiritual walk, using hot-button issues as substitutes for talking about their life experience and their feelings. I'm very grateful for the occasional thread where people open up about their feelings in their own personal lives. But instead of being open about these things, some people seem to use these complicated and polarized issues as a proxy for talking about their everyday experiences and feelings. They don't really talk about themselves.

I'm not sure why, but we often seem to do best discussing the Bible or theology, even complicated subjects that involve textual criticism.

[Robert]

Another part of the problem is that people often seem to hide their feelings and spiritual walk

They don't really talk about themselves.

Trust or lack of it. Much easier to have someone disagree with some meaningless issue then disapproving of us personally. Easier to externalize when you don't like my issue. Easier to accept someone ignoring some cultural issue hen ignoring something that is really cutting personally deep.

Not sure about others, but I have no desire to put all my personal stuff out all over the open internet for he whole world to see. I actually do not think that is very wise. One should share as trust builds. One should not share completely open to strangers. We are strangers in ways here. Many who read I don't know at all.

How I feel matters more when talking through how best to handle relationships.

This is a big difference in us. I feel EVERY conversation and discussion involves a relationship. It is either building one up or tearing one down; a relationship, not the person. EVERY conversation affects a relationship.

I think it's helpful to be "matter of fact" about matters of fact.

I see facts as secondary to the relationship. I can deal with a friend being totally wrong about something. That is why I still like you even though you are totally wrong about climate change. (See, that is the jokester in me. You take a statement like that very matter of fact, but I am actually grinning as I type it. I like to tease people I like. It is mostly misread on forums unless the person knows me really well personally.)

I'm not sure why, but we often seem to do best discussing the Bible or theology, even complicated subjects that involve textual criticism.

I have done that so much for over 20 years that I just need a break from it. One of the reasons I post so little right now. I just want to laugh and a serious forum is not real conducive to me.

[Josh]

Whether they win or not depends on the way the points are counted.

It means they eventually dominate the conversation and other, less loud posters are driven away and eventually give up on this forum.

[justme]

Whether they win or not depends on the way the points are counted.

It means they eventually dominate the conversation and other, less loud posters are driven away and eventually give up on this forum.

that's rich.
the most prolific poster on the forum at this time is complaining that the less loud posters are being driven away by the ones who dominate the conversation.

[Bootstrap]

Another part of the problem is that people often seem to hide their feelings and spiritual walk

They don't really talk about themselves.

Trust or lack of it. Much easier to have someone disagree with some meaningless issue then disapproving of us personally. Easier to externalize when you don't like my issue. Easier to accept someone ignoring some cultural issue hen ignoring something that is really cutting personally deep.

Not sure about others, but I have no desire to put all my personal stuff out all over the open internet for he whole world to see. I actually do not think that is very wise. One should share as trust builds. One should not share completely open to strangers. We are strangers in ways here. Many who read I don't know at all.

Part of the problem, I think, is that there are some people who actually do attack, then other people go on the defensive and counter-attack. Trust erodes rather than building.

In the depression thread, I thought people were sharing judiciously and carefully, but the thread also required a bit of protection so it wouldn't get stomped on and people could share. That's the kind of thing I hope we can do as a community.