Ernie wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2026 7:21 pm
I find this interesting.
This would preclude involvement in politics which most Plain Anabaptists teach to at least some degree.
Some organizations seek to teach good character to children, good community habits and skills, better ways to have conversations, etc. (without injecting Christianity into it) with the hope of making a difference in their communities.
If the above is taken literally, Christians should not be involved in such endeavors.
I wonder what movements or societies the writers had in mind. If taken literally I suppose it would disallow blood drives, volunteer firefighter brigades, picking up trash along the road, teaching in a public school, drilling public wells in dry areas, establishing health clinics in impoverished areas...
I don't think that's a correct interpretation.
I've don't think that blood drives, firefighting, picking up trash, or drilling wells are an attempt to reform society. They are an attempt to provide aid and assistance.
Things like protest marches, WCTU meetings, Temperance Pledges, Labor Unions, etc on the other hand were in fact aimed at reforming society.
Some groups of Christians and some Christian organizations seek to teach good character to children, good community habits and skills, better ways to have conversations, etc. (without injecting Christianity into it) with the hope of reforming their communities and making them a better place to live.
What about things like this?
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
I teach my kids why we should follow traffic laws. The goal isn’t to reform society, but is rather not to become lawbreakers ourselves.
Likewise I don’t think serving the fire department will reform society, but rather is an opportunity to show that Christians can and will serve without ulterior motives.
My denomination keeps international aid and mission programmes separate and indeed this is an ongoing challenge as missionaries often want to help people who have been attending church etc.
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2026 11:08 pm
I am flabbergasted. Discussing the Seven Mountains within a historically critical Anabaptist position like separation demonstrates how many who claim Anabaptist are indeed infected with fundamentalist thinking.
I don't think it is new for you to be flabbergasted by something you read on Mennonet.
But maybe in this case you missed the punchline...
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
JayP wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2026 11:08 pm
I am flabbergasted. Discussing the Seven Mountains within a historically critical Anabaptist position like separation demonstrates how many who claim Anabaptist are indeed infected with fundamentalist thinking.
I don't think it is new for you to be flabbergasted by something you read on Mennonet.
But maybe in this case you missed the punchline...
I find myself rarely flabbergasted at stuff on Mennonet, but I have been flabbered occasionally.
barnhart wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2026 7:41 pm
I wonder what movements or societies the writers had in mind. If taken literally I suppose it would disallow blood drives, volunteer firefighter brigades, picking up trash along the road, teaching in a public school, drilling public wells in dry areas, establishing health clinics in impoverished areas...
I don't think that's a correct interpretation.
I've don't think that blood drives, firefighting, picking up trash, or drilling wells are an attempt to reform society. They are an attempt to provide aid and assistance.
Things like protest marches, WCTU meetings, Temperance Pledges, Labor Unions, etc on the other hand were in fact aimed at reforming society.
Some groups of Christians and some Christian organizations seek to teach good character to children, good community habits and skills, better ways to have conversations, etc. (without injecting Christianity into it) with the hope of reforming their communities and making them a better place to live.
What about things like this?
I am of the impression that that is the kind of thing the Separation article is saying it is our duty to remain aloof from. It is an attempt to make people into "good people" while ignoring the true source of "goodness."
There were plenty of Mennonites in the early 20th century who were actually excited about things like supplemental schooling for underprivileged children, sewing and canning classes for mothers, etc but they thought the Gospel should be part and parcel of any civic improvement attempts.
That concept of remaining aloof from secular societal reform efforts still affects how some of the Conservative Mennonites think about relief work and community service efforts, and a related concept is why some churches are hesitant or negative toward interdenominational or interfaith relief organizations.
barnhart wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2026 7:41 pm
I wonder what movements or societies the writers had in mind. If taken literally I suppose it would disallow blood drives, volunteer firefighter brigades, picking up trash along the road, teaching in a public school, drilling public wells in dry areas, establishing health clinics in impoverished areas...
I don't think that's a correct interpretation.
I've don't think that blood drives, firefighting, picking up trash, or drilling wells are an attempt to reform society. They are an attempt to provide aid and assistance.
Things like protest marches, WCTU meetings, Temperance Pledges, Labor Unions, etc on the other hand were in fact aimed at reforming society.
Some groups of Christians and some Christian organizations seek to teach good character to children, good community habits and skills, better ways to have conversations, etc. (without injecting Christianity into it) with the hope of reforming their communities and making them a better place to live.
What about things like this?
To me there is a danger of creating so much separation that the salt and light aspect of Jesus' teaching is minimized. God bless those who keep everything in balance.
Social Gospel theology is a danger but so is neo gnostic dualism that teaches the good news is only for the soul and not for the relationships, families, homes, communities and bodies of the lost. In this gospel salvation means being evacuated from the sinful world into the spirit realm to individually be with God.
Around the 14th century these ideas from ancient Greek philosophy experienced a bit of a revival and mixed with Renaissance ideas to produce a landscape of belief where God and the spirit world (religion) is distant from the material world we inhabit (science). Liberal theology accepted this and embraced the mandate of saving the world through improved society. Evangelical theology stood against that by demanding a gospel that keeps blood, sacrifice and internal renewal (a Jesus that saves your soul) but it also failed to challenge the underlying assumption that heaven and earth are eternally, unsolvably distant.
I'm more in favor of a gospel that follows the biblical narrative of a heaven and earth that were created in harmony and unity, fell apart through sin and rebellion but are destined to be reunited when all things are made new. This is why Anabaptist theology emphasizes the teaching of Jesus, because heaven has already begun to come to earth, the new Adam has reversed the failed course of humanity and the heavenly family is being created through rebirth.
I think this why JC Wenger called his book "Separated into God", separation is a by product not a goal to achieve. The separation from evil is holiness not separation and non-conformity.
ken_sylvania wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2026 9:40 pm
I don't think that's a correct interpretation.
I've don't think that blood drives, firefighting, picking up trash, or drilling wells are an attempt to reform society. They are an attempt to provide aid and assistance.
Things like protest marches, WCTU meetings, Temperance Pledges, Labor Unions, etc on the other hand were in fact aimed at reforming society.
Some groups of Christians and some Christian organizations seek to teach good character to children, good community habits and skills, better ways to have conversations, etc. (without injecting Christianity into it) with the hope of reforming their communities and making them a better place to live.
What about things like this?
To me there is a danger of creating so much separation that the salt and light aspect of Jesus' teaching is minimized. God bless those who keep everything in balance.
If these programs are already specifically designed to teach these things without Christianity then I think the salt and light aspect is already gone.