Entire Michigan city government is Muslim

[barnhart]

After a decade of Muslim mayors and city council, how is Hamtramck doing? Any signs of religious intolerance? Any churches shut down? Any no go zones where non- Muslims are excluded? Sharia law? Honor killings? Has any part of the city charter been changed to favor the practice of Islam? These were all concerns I have heard to support ending Muslim immigration.

Your questions come across as rather smug and self-satisfied. Look down your nose at those concerned about Islamism if you must but the concerns raised, and that you've turned around in ironic questioning, are not conspiratorial or racist bogeymen. They are entirely observable in Europe and not in 2002 as Jazman suggests, but presently. That they blessedly have not occurred in the U.S. is something to be thankful for and a reason to ask questions like why in Europe but not the U.S. Dismissing the possibility out-of-hand though betrays, I think some blind-spots on your end.

Do think there is a way to ask this that is not smug, self satisfied, looking down and motivated by blind spots?

[HondurasKeiser]

After a decade of Muslim mayors and city council, how is Hamtramck doing? Any signs of religious intolerance? Any churches shut down? Any no go zones where non- Muslims are excluded? Sharia law? Honor killings? Has any part of the city charter been changed to favor the practice of Islam? These were all concerns I have heard to support ending Muslim immigration.

Your questions come across as rather smug and self-satisfied. Look down your nose at those concerned about Islamism if you must but the concerns raised, and that you've turned around in ironic questioning, are not conspiratorial or racist bogeymen. They are entirely observable in Europe and not in 2002 as Jazman suggests, but presently. That they blessedly have not occurred in the U.S. is something to be thankful for and a reason to ask questions like why in Europe but not the U.S. Dismissing the possibility out-of-hand though betrays, I think some blind-spots on your end.

Do think there is a way to ask this that is not smug, self satisfied, looking down and motivated by blind spots?

Yes, asking why these issues have occurred in Europe but seemingly not in the U.S. is a neutral way of getting at the question.

[barnhart]

Your questions come across as rather smug and self-satisfied. Look down your nose at those concerned about Islamism if you must but the concerns raised, and that you've turned around in ironic questioning, are not conspiratorial or racist bogeymen. They are entirely observable in Europe and not in 2002 as Jazman suggests, but presently. That they blessedly have not occurred in the U.S. is something to be thankful for and a reason to ask questions like why in Europe but not the U.S. Dismissing the possibility out-of-hand though betrays, I think some blind-spots on your end.

Do think there is a way to ask this that is not smug, self satisfied, looking down and motivated by blind spots?

Yes, asking why these issues have occurred in Europe but seemingly not in the U.S. is a neutral way of getting at the question.

This is a discussion I have tried to have for years here on mennonet but the response has been a little hostile, not from you as I recall, but from others. Why Right and Left have different expressions across the Atlantic is an interesting topic.

[JohnH]

France is about 10% Muslim (15% by some estimates); UK 6%; Germany 8%.

U.S. is around 1.5% Muslim.

That would be the most obvious immediate difference.

[HondurasKeiser]

Do think there is a way to ask this that is not smug, self satisfied, looking down and motivated by blind spots?

Yes, asking why these issues have occurred in Europe but seemingly not in the U.S. is a neutral way of getting at the question.

This is a discussion I have tried to have for years here on mennonet but the response has been a little hostile, not from you as I recall, but from others. Why Right and Left have different expressions across the Atlantic is an interesting topic.

What exactly have you been seeking to explore? Why the European immigrant experience has been quite different from the American one? Or, the difference between the Right and the Left on both sides of the Atlantic? Or both?

[Judas Maccabeus]

If I were passing nearby, I would likely stop in to check out the food scene.

You could check out Patterson instead. Just an NJ transit ride away, and has a significant Arabic language speaking population. Great food. Order the Mixed Grill.

[barnhart]

Yes, asking why these issues have occurred in Europe but seemingly not in the U.S. is a neutral way of getting at the question.

This is a discussion I have tried to have for years here on mennonet but the response has been a little hostile, not from you as I recall, but from others. Why Right and Left have different expressions across the Atlantic is an interesting topic.

What exactly have you been seeking to explore? Why the European immigrant experience has been quite different from the American one? Or, the difference between the Right and the Left on both sides of the Atlantic? Or both?

If there were broad continuety across the Atlantic the French revolutionaries who killed the king and the American patriot revolutionaries who threw out the king would align as Leftist. But the American revolutionaries immediately wrote the bill of rights, which roughly speaking is the fortress of the US Right. They also did not throw out God along with king as the European Left, indeed many considered themselves faithful churchmen all their lives. There was no tearing down churches, killing clergy, or seizure of church assets. The American God seemingly approved of Revolution as there was no need to strip his authority out of society like in Europe. The foundation of American Conservatism has been called Classical Liberalism since it traditionally conserved the liberal values of the founding.

Likewise the American Left does not descend from a tradition of evangelical Atheism. It has roots in various truly American ideas like universal literacy (no one should be denied the opportunity to read God's word), socialist infrastructure (all weather roads and bridges create economic opportunity for all), enforced morality (government is obligated to do good, blasphemy laws, laws against Sunday labor, truency, slavery, alcohol, business monopolies, pollution etc...) The descendants of the pilgrims no longer burn witches, instead they cancel racists.

Some of the most prominent politicians currently on the Left are far from atheist, indeed they are often open about their religion, AOC, Ilhan Omar, Hakeem Jeffries, Raphael Warnock... while the MAGA movement seems to be drifting agnostic at the top levels.

If the American Right had it's roots in European political alignment, blood and soil identity politics would be a comfortable fit. Instead, those with a bit of memory and historical perspective can recall an American Right that believed the root of the founding was ideological (all men created equal) rather than genetic or cultural that pushed back against the Birchers, David Dukes and Pat Buchanans. The current, euro style, identity politics, Right has been here all along but usually as a minority voice.

Back to the topic of this thread, the culture/religious gap between the founders and the Danbury Baptists or the New England Jewish community, or the mainstream protestant majority and the eastern European Jewish immigrants was no greater than the gap between the Muslims of Detroit and their farming neighbors to the south. What is different is the conviction to separate state authority from religious authority and agree to live in equity, none seeking to dominate the other. This is why French or British Muslims do not assimilate, no matter how many generations they live there, the will never be French or British.

We can still take a different path, we can look back into our own history and find an America that believes in itself enough to include diversity.

[JohnH]

What is different is the conviction to separate state authority from religious authority and agree to live in equity, none seeking to dominate the other. This is why French or British Muslims do not assimilate, no matter how many generations they live there, the will never be French or British.

France is a secular state and has been for a long time.

[Valerie]

This is a discussion I have tried to have for years here on mennonet but the response has been a little hostile, not from you as I recall, but from others. Why Right and Left have different expressions across the Atlantic is an interesting topic.

What exactly have you been seeking to explore? Why the European immigrant experience has been quite different from the American one? Or, the difference between the Right and the Left on both sides of the Atlantic? Or both?

If there were broad continuety across the Atlantic the French revolutionaries who killed the king and the American patriot revolutionaries who threw out the king would align as Leftist. But the American revolutionaries immediately wrote the bill of rights, which roughly speaking is the fortress of the US Right. They also did not throw out God along with king as the European Left, indeed many considered themselves faithful churchmen all their lives. There was no tearing down churches, killing clergy, or seizure of church assets. The American God seemingly approved of Revolution as there was no need to strip his authority out of society like in Europe. The foundation of American Conservatism has been called Classical Liberalism since it traditionally conserved the liberal values of the founding.

Likewise the American Left does not descend from a tradition of evangelical Atheism. It has roots in various truly American ideas like universal literacy (no one should be denied the opportunity to read God's word), socialist infrastructure (all weather roads and bridges create economic opportunity for all), enforced morality (government is obligated to do good, blasphemy laws, laws against Sunday labor, truency, slavery, alcohol, business monopolies, pollution etc...) The descendants of the pilgrims no longer burn witches, instead they cancel racists.

Some of the most prominent politicians currently on the Left are far from atheist, indeed they are often open about their religion, AOC, Ilhan Omar, Hakeem Jeffries, Raphael Warnock... while the MAGA movement seems to be drifting agnostic at the top levels.

If the American Right had it's roots in European political alignment, blood and soil identity politics would be a comfortable fit. Instead, those with a bit of memory and historical perspective can recall an American Right that believed the root of the founding was ideological (all men created equal) rather than genetic or cultural that pushed back against the Birchers, David Dukes and Pat Buchanans. The current, euro style, identity politics, Right has been here all along but usually as a minority voice.

Back to the topic of this thread, the culture/religious gap between the founders and the Danbury Baptists or the New England Jewish community, or the mainstream protestant majority and the eastern European Jewish immigrants was no greater than the gap between the Muslims of Detroit and their farming neighbors to the south. What is different is the conviction to separate state authority from religious authority and agree to live in equity, none seeking to dominate the other. This is why French or British Muslims do not assimilate, no matter how many generations they live there, the will never be French or British.

We can still take a different path, we can look back into our own history and find an America that believes in itself enough to include diversity.

Are you sure you’re listening to all the speeches of the people you named? It’s line we are getting our information from complete different sources.

America still does believe in diversity on the “right” but clearly we do not embrace it without discernment & recognizing some of the real threats- and also understand agendas & directions that certain diversities are wanting to take us. There’s a significant difference in welcoming Anabaptist people and embracing politicians into our government knowing they have ties to terrorist groups-
Without fully understanding it’s not just diversity but truly understanding the agenda of radical Islam-it’s really important to listen to the warnings- it has nothing to do with diversity- this administration has diversity- how many Anabaptists infiltrated our government with terrorist ties? How can you not see the difference?