God and War

[JohnH]

I find the attempts to put God in a box interesting. It strikes me of a rationalist impulse that attempts to entirely explain God (and to do so in modern terms and in a way that appeals to modernist sensibilities, such as ones that would claim the God of the Old Testament is a mean, bad god.)

I prefer the idea of simple obedience. We've been told not to kill, even when justified in doing so. Those are our commands, so we follow them with simple obedience. But I would never go so far as to say God couldn't decide to give me other orders in the future, particularly in the age to come. I do believe God is entirely good. God creates life, and I think he also knows best when to end it and how it should be ended.

God's wrath is also sometimes kindled hot against man. God decided to drown all of humanity in the great flood - both men and half-breeds of men with "giants". He considered what both were doing to be very detestable. What God did was entirely just and good. It is interesting, though, that he didn't command Noah to help him carry this out - instead, he gave Noah the mission to offer salvation to anyone who was willing to obey God and board the ark. His sons and their precious wives chose to do so, and were saved. Is this not an example of how it will be in the age to come?

[Silentreader]

I have no idea how things will be in the next life,
but my point is, if I am asked in this life to have my mind and heart renewed and transformed to be like the mind of Christ, and I enter the next world in the same frame of mind that I am in now, I expect that Christ will understand my hesitancy to take up the sword.
But whether or not he will ask me to do that is beyond my realm of knowledge or understanding as a human on this earth.
I trust the Judge of all the earth and will wait to see what is in store for us.

If Rev. 19:11-21 is being referred to, I am not sure that any striking or slaying is said to be done other than by He who is called "The Word of God". At that point judgement has been given into His All-sufficient Hand.

Revelation 2:26–27
“He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots; as I also have received of my Father.”
Revelation 17:14 — “They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Revelation 19:11-15
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

I read Revelation as apocalyptic-symbolic-metaphoric so I don't know what the saints will do or not do.
Others read these things very literally. My comments were made lightly, while recognizing that if it turns out that Revelation to be very literal, then there are things that will need to be resolved in my mind and heart in some way.

Good point. So there very well may not be any judgement or destruction at all.

[JohnH]

Good point. So there very well may not be any judgement or destruction at all.

Likewise, when it says there will be no more crying, I guess that might not actually happen either. And when it says there will be no more curse, well, maybe that's just analogy too and there actually will continue to be a curse.

I am cautious about trying to explain away too much of the Bible. It is entirely true, even the parts that make us uncomfortable. God is indeed going to wield a sword, and judge and condemn many to eternal death. Universalism is false doctrine.

[JoyE]

Had this in my Bible reading recently:
[Jer 22:3 NKJV] – 3 'Thus says the LORD: "Execute judgment and righteousness, and deliver the plundered out of the hand of the oppressor. Do no wrong and do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, or the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place.

And the Royal Law:
[Lev 19:18 KJV] – 18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Yet there were commands to go to war:
[Num 31:4 KJV] – 4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
[Deu 20:12 KJV] – 12 And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it:
[Deu 20:4 KJV] – 4 For the LORD your God is he that goeth with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.

And finally, a curse on those who would not fight.
[Jer 48:10 KJV] – 10 Cursed be he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keepeth back his sword from blood.

So there is a time for war, though perhaps not most of those within our lifetimes.

[Silentreader]

If Rev. 19:11-21 is being referred to, I am not sure that any striking or slaying is said to be done other than by He who is called "The Word of God". At that point judgement has been given into His All-sufficient Hand.

Revelation 2:26–27
“He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots; as I also have received of my Father.”
Revelation 17:14 — “They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Revelation 19:11-15
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

I read Revelation as apocalyptic-symbolic-metaphoric so I don't know what the saints will do or not do.
Others read these things very literally. My comments were made lightly, while recognizing that if it turns out that Revelation to be very literal, then there are things that will need to be resolved in my mind and heart in some way.

Good point. So there very well may not be any judgement or destruction at all.

I think it is fair to say that starting about the beginning of Rev. 4 until the end of the book, with the possible but not necessary exception of the last 11 verses, John was in the spirit, and what he described was a spiritual reality. Spiritual, but reality nevertheless. How though do you translate the spiritual account in a way that we can understand it in our 3-demensional physical understanding? History shows us that interpretation is difficult, verging on impossible probably in some areas. It was important enough that John has recorded it. But it certainly also has become a stone of stumbling for many across the centuries.

[joshuabgood]

If I read the OT the way some folks seem to, and believed about God what some folks do, I'd be pro-war too. And it would feel good to have a man like Pete Hegseth in charge.

Here am I send me.

But I don't, I think Jesus is the full revelation of God and the OT is and was insufficient to reveal God, hence he came in the flesh.

How do you reconcile that with the description of Jesus' return in the New Testament, where he's described as leading an army and wielding a sword against his enemies in the greatest battle of all time?

It's a metaphor. That seems obvious to me. Real weapons of war in this age are not swords. Using the word "war" is also metaphorical. We war against the flesh of course but we dont use drones and hand grenades or katanas against the flesh.

[Ernie]

Revelation 2:26–27
“He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots; as I also have received of my Father.”
Revelation 17:14 — “They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Revelation 19:11-15
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

I read Revelation as apocalyptic-symbolic-metaphoric so I don't know what the saints will do or not do.
Others read these things very literally. My comments were made lightly, while recognizing that if it turns out that Revelation to be very literal, then there are things that will need to be resolved in my mind and heart in some way.

Good point. So there very well may not be any judgement or destruction at all.

I think it is fair to say that starting about the beginning of Rev. 4 until the end of the book, with the possible but not necessary exception of the last 11 verses, John was in the spirit, and what he described was a spiritual reality. Spiritual, but reality nevertheless. How though do you translate the spiritual account in a way that we can understand it in our 3-demensional physical understanding? History shows us that interpretation is difficult, verging on impossible probably in some areas. It was important enough that John has recorded it. But it certainly also has become a stone of stumbling for many across the centuries.

Thanks for putting that in words. That is how I look at it.

I am confident there will be judgment and destruction. Just not sure how it will look in the spiritual realm.

[barnhart]

It's a metaphor. That seems obvious to me. Real weapons of war in this age are not swords. Using the word "war" is also metaphorical. We war against the flesh of course but we dont use drones and hand grenades or katanas against the flesh.

This seems to harmonize well with other Anabaptist ideas like two kingdom theology where nation building is categorically a worldly pursuit or enemy love/suffering servant theology where evil is conquered with spiritual warfare. I wonder how stable it will prove to adopt literalist understanding of end times wars without that concept of war and struggle creeping backward into the current world.

[JayP]

I am surprised by the many views here that to me, seem off. The discussions of what God asks of Christians seems to me, too focused by many of you on the state, rather than on the individual Christian. I do not think it is our place to judge the state, debate the merits of this war or that one. Now here is where the Catholic sounds much more like the Anabaptist than some of you. Jesus does not ask anything of my nation. I am not sure he asks much of any church (although He asks much of its leaders and there teaching). He asks ME,not You, He asks me as a Christian to follow his specific examples of turn the other cheek. No one alive, or throughout history was faced with a more unfair situation than his arrest, trial, and execution. HIS example for ME, what you do is up to you, is to turn the other cheek, and be non resistant. Many of you would agree, but by slipping into the broader conversation get to change the outcome. HE did not come to save nations, but each individual

[Ernie]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=11k8z2YrByk

Charlie Kirk is introduced to the idea that Christians should not serve in war. "That's a new one."

Start listening at 8:50 for the war discussion.