Mary & Joseph

[Soloist]

By the way, Jesus did not have siblings. I know (laughingly) that is going to set some off and we’ll hear about “brother of the Lord” and other bad translation.

Let me ask you something. You are aware that your betrothed will as a virgin bear a child via the Holy Ghost….NOTE, Joseph KNOWS this, and is the mother of the son of God. You are going to now sleep with her? Tradition is quite clear that Joseph was older than Mary.

Another note. Ireaneus (disciple of Polycarp a disciple of John who cared for Mary), Justin Martyr, Oregen all confirm this
These are people that knew John

Ireaneus clearly was speaking of before Jesus was born and likewise Justin Martyr.
Origen may have but he was considerably removed and this is exactly what I referred to about reading doctrine back onto simple statements.

Tradition of Joseph being older doesn’t matter at all.
It’s one of those silly doctrines that require twisting Scripture to say something it doesn’t say.
The Catholics sometimes attempt to explain that Joseph had children from a prior marriage but that makes little sense in the text and stretches belief.
Of course we don’t believe Mary is the queen of heaven or has a special position to warrant prayer to and as an ex Anabaptist that really shouldn’t surprise you that we believe differently then you. This isn’t a Catholic forum and if I posted against core Catholic beliefs on a Catholic forum I would be banned. I’m not advocating you get banned, but we didn’t drown people or kill them for heretical beliefs or weird ones like this.

[mike]

Let me ask you something. You are aware that your betrothed will as a virgin bear a child via the Holy Ghost….NOTE, Joseph KNOWS this, and is the mother of the son of God. You are going to now sleep with her? Tradition is quite clear that Joseph was older than Mary.

Matthew makes it quite clear that Joseph didn't sleep with Mary before the child was born.

What I find odd is how Catholics claim that he never did so afterwards, despite Jesus having brothers. Quite an odd idea of marriage they have, there.

Relevant passage.

Matthew 1:24, 25 When Joseph got up from sleeping, he did as the Lord’s angel had commanded him. He married her but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

[mike]

Mike is presuming too much and applying his opinion as true interpretation.

I disagree Mary did not understand a great deal, nor that Joseph’s amazement means he neither understood nor knew who Jesus was.

By the way, Jesus did not have siblings. I know (laughingly) that is going to set some off and we’ll hear about “brother of the Lord” and other bad translation.

Let me ask you something. You are aware that your betrothed will as a virgin bear a child via the Holy Ghost….NOTE, Joseph KNOWS this, and is the mother of the son of God. You are going to now sleep with her? Tradition is quite clear that Joseph was older than Mary.

Another note. Ireaneus (disciple of Polycarp a disciple of John who cared for Mary), Justin Martyr, Oregen all confirm this
These are people that knew John

All of this from a Catholic perspective is rather unsurprising, albeit not terribly interesting or profitable, because we already know we won't agree.

[Valerie]

Mike is presuming too much and applying his opinion as true interpretation.

I disagree Mary did not understand a great deal, nor that Joseph’s amazement means he neither understood nor knew who Jesus was.

By the way, Jesus did not have siblings. I know (laughingly) that is going to set some off and we’ll hear about “brother of the Lord” and other bad translation.

Let me ask you something. You are aware that your betrothed will as a virgin bear a child via the Holy Ghost….NOTE, Joseph KNOWS this, and is the mother of the son of God. You are going to now sleep with her? Tradition is quite clear that Joseph was older than Mary.

Another note. Ireaneus (disciple of Polycarp a disciple of John who cared for Mary), Justin Martyr, Oregen all confirm this
These are people that knew John

All of this from a Catholic perspective is rather unsurprising, albeit not terribly interesting or profitable, because we already know we won't agree.

Of course Eastern Orthodoxx(& even Lutherans) believe the same.

It was pointed out to me years ago, the use of the word “until” does not necessarily mean it changed after. I remember the person gave me several scripture references, using the word until to show me that whatever those scripture references were referring to, the circumstance did not change afterwards either so I guess the use of the word until does not justify assuming anything here.

Also, it would be interesting to ask where are the generations of Jesus‘s bloodline it seems to me that would be a pretty big thing to say you had a direct bloodline to Jesus if you were truly a half brother or sister by Mary and Joseph.

It does not contradict scripture at all to state that Joseph was an older man. Obviously, he died way before Jesus earthly ministry, so it is very likely that it is true that he was an older man. Scripture does not say either way.

Think how important Anabaptists follow their bloodlines.
Wouldn’t it stand to reason blood siblings of the Mesdiah would track through these 2000 years?

[Soloist]

Also, it would be interesting to ask where are the generations of Jesus‘s bloodline it seems to me that would be a pretty big thing to say you had a direct bloodline to Jesus if you were truly a half brother or sister by Mary and Joseph.

Snip

Think how important Anabaptists follow their bloodlines.
Wouldn’t it stand to reason blood siblings of the Mesdiah would track through these 2000 years?

I think Jesus answered it Himself

Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Why trace something that doesn’t matter to Jesus when it’s obedience that does make us brothers and children?

[Valerie]

Also, it would be interesting to ask where are the generations of Jesus‘s bloodline it seems to me that would be a pretty big thing to say you had a direct bloodline to Jesus if you were truly a half brother or sister by Mary and Joseph.

Snip

Think how important Anabaptists follow their bloodlines.
Wouldn’t it stand to reason blood siblings of the Mesdiah would track through these 2000 years?

I think Jesus answered it Himself

Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Why trace something that doesn’t matter to Jesus when it’s obedience that does make us brothers and children?

Then why do Anabaptist place great importance on their genealogy? You go to their heritage centers and see all the books they gave to trace their lineage, are you suggesting it’s wrong for them to do that??

[Soloist]

Then why do Anabaptist place great importance on their genealogy? You go to their heritage centers and see all the books they gave to trace their lineage, are you suggesting it’s wrong for them to do that??

I wasn’t suggesting it was wrong just that the early Christians prioritized obedience over honoring a step relation with Jesus.

I’m not a Mennonite by birth but continuing my line is important to me, but far more a godly heritage.

[mike]

Also, it would be interesting to ask where are the generations of Jesus‘s bloodline it seems to me that would be a pretty big thing to say you had a direct bloodline to Jesus if you were truly a half brother or sister by Mary and Joseph.

Snip

Think how important Anabaptists follow their bloodlines.
Wouldn’t it stand to reason blood siblings of the Mesdiah would track through these 2000 years?

I think Jesus answered it Himself

Mat 12:48  But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49  And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50  For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Why trace something that doesn’t matter to Jesus when it’s obedience that does make us brothers and children?

Then why do Anabaptist place great importance on their genealogy? You go to their heritage centers and see all the books they gave to trace their lineage, are you suggesting it’s wrong for them to do that??

Because it is of interest to them.

There is nothing in the good news of Jesus or in the canonical apostolic writings that suggests there is any unique privilege in the kingdom of God for Jesus' mother or siblings or those descended from them. The mention of Mary among Jesus' disciples in Acts 1 suggests that she was simply one of those who believed in Him, and the mention of his brother James as being one of the leaders in the early church suggests the same.

What struck me in rereading the Luke 2 account recently was just how human Mary and Joseph were, how limited their understanding was despite the revelations they had received, and how amazed they were at unfolding events. That's what prompted this thread.

[JohnH]

It was pointed out to me years ago, the use of the word “until” does not necessarily mean it changed after. I remember the person gave me several scripture references, using the word until to show me that whatever those scripture references were referring to, the circumstance did not change afterwards either so I guess the use of the word until does not justify assuming anything here.

"I didn't drive 100 miles an hour until I got on the freeway."

What would you think I did once I got on the freeway?

It does not contradict scripture at all to state that Joseph was an older man. Obviously, he died way before Jesus earthly ministry, so it is very likely that it is true that he was an older man. Scripture does not say either way.

We also have no evidence he was an older man. It is likely he was a younger man, because nearly any older man would have already been married and had children already (even if his first wife had died), and it is very unlikely him having prior children wouldn't have been mentioned.

In any case, the Bible clearly refers to Jesus blood brothers. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... his blood brothers were born of Mary, with their father being Joseph. Note the Bible also refers sometimes to Joseph as Jesus' father as well.

The Catholic dogma that Mary and Joseph had some kind of bizarro-world sexless marriage is made up nonsense.

[JohnH]

Because it is of interest to them.

One good reason is to make sure you aren't dating someone who is too close of a relative, and also to track genetic diseases. That alone right there is a very good reason to keep accurate genealogies.