Stereotyping and Overgeneralizing People and Institutions

[JohnH]

We probably need a common working definition of worldly. From my perspective, it is not synonymous with cultural assimilation, and its antithesis is not success in sustaining a counter culture.

I am using it in the sense most Anabaptists use it, based on scriptures about "be not conformed to this world".

I will stand my ground that a Christian spirit does not lead people to download apps to follow the Eagles score, and to sit around playing games pretending they're a soldier running around shooting people on their X-Box. Those are things that are very much part of being conformed to the world.

[joshuabgood]

We probably need a common working definition of worldly. From my perspective, it is not synonymous with cultural assimilation, and its antithesis is not success in sustaining a counter culture.

I am using it in the sense most Anabaptists use it, based on scriptures about "be not conformed to this world".

I will stand my ground that a Christian spirit does not lead people to download apps to follow the Eagles score, and to sit around playing games pretending they're a soldier running around shooting people on their X-Box. Those are things that are very much part of being conformed to the world.

I see worldliness in church splits, gossiping, animosity toward immigrants, judging other tribes/churches (one true/best church doctrines), ethnic arrogance, etc.

The antithesis of worldliness is being conformed into the image/likeness of Jesus of Nazareth. And following the two greatest commandments.

[JohnH]

I see worldliness in church splits, gossiping, animosity toward immigrants, judging other tribes/churches (one true/best church doctrines), ethnic arrogance, etc.

The antithesis of worldliness is being conformed into the image/likeness of Jesus of Nazareth. And following the two greatest commandments.

Sure. But the other things are still worldly. The fact someone else is worldly in area A doesn't mean it's somehow acceptable for you to be worldly in area B.

Imagine if I made this argument: "People in joshgood's circles listen to AM talk radio, watch Fox News, follow pro sports games, and play violent video games. Therefore, in my own church, our problems with gossip are OK."

animosity toward immigrants,

Animosity towards other people is a sin, but are you sure you aren't conflating that with "not holding the current prevailing liberal-progressive political position on mass immigration"? I do not consider the two to be the same.

judging other tribes/churches (one true/best church doctrines),

I think it's fine to judge other churches. For example, I judge the Mormons as being a false church with false doctrines. Do you disagree?

[joshuabgood]

I see worldliness in church splits, gossiping, animosity toward immigrants, judging other tribes/churches (one true/best church doctrines), ethnic arrogance, etc.

The antithesis of worldliness is being conformed into the image/likeness of Jesus of Nazareth. And following the two greatest commandments.

Sure. But the other things are still worldly. The fact someone else is worldly in area A doesn't mean it's somehow acceptable for you to be worldly in area B.

Imagine if I made this argument: "People in joshgood's circles listen to AM talk radio, watch Fox News, follow pro sports games, and play violent video games. Therefore, in my own church, our problems with gossip are OK."

animosity toward immigrants,

Animosity towards other people is a sin, but are you sure you aren't conflating that with "not holding the current prevailing liberal-progressive political position on mass immigration"? I do not consider the two to be the same.

judging other tribes/churches (one true/best church doctrines),

I think it's fine to judge other churches. For example, I judge the Mormons as being a false church with false doctrines. Do you disagree?

The only lens I am comfortable discussing is to what extent a church/individual represent the likeness/character of Jesus, who he was, how he acted, what he taught. I don't need to judge anybody, re Jesus explicit teaching...I can challenge everyone, and be challenged myself to be come more like Christ, the author and finisher of the Faith.

[JohnH]

The only lens I am comfortable discussing is to what extent a church/individual represent the likeness/character of Jesus, who he was, how he acted, what he taught. I don't need to judge anybody, re Jesus explicit teaching...I can challenge everyone, and be challenged myself to be come more like Christ, the author and finisher of the Faith.

That would be a pluralistic, liberal-progressive view (which is not to say it is all bad; strict sectarianism is not exactly admirable either). I am quite comfortable declaring that someone who says that Jesus is not the Christ is indeed the "antichrist", and is not a Christian, and nor is a "church" that teaches that Jesus is not the Christ.

The Bible does teach us to judge with righteous judgment, and indeed to dismiss false teachers. That means we do need to discern who false teachers are.

[Ernie]

I think it is a little self evident. Creating a scale, putting yourself on the scale, looking down on people who are in a different category, creating a meta narrative about who's on the right track along the scale, these all seem to me to me value judgements. I'm not aware Scott did these things but others have used his categories to do that. I think the hunger that pushes Mennonites to find meaning, purpose and identity in this pursuit is not wise. This is different than different groups deciding for themselves who they are close to.

There may be a person on this forum who fits this description, hence the reason for this thread. But I have not seen this "hunger for identity that pressed mennonites to assign value judgements to his categories." I am interested in hearing more about where you have seen this otherwise.

I don't like to hear people say things like "old orders aren't saved" because they don't have a modern doctrine of Penal Substitutionary atonement and I don't like to hear people say some other group that doesn't dress like me or doesn't share my exact practice is worldly.

I can agree with this. In many Plain Anabaptist churches on a Sunday morning, it is not uncommon to hear something similar to, "God I thank thee that I am not like that publican we saw on the way to church today, or that publican who lives down the road, or that publican..."

[JohnH]

I can agree with this. In many Plain Anabaptist churches on a Sunday morning, it is not uncommon to hear something similar to, "God I thank thee that I am not like that publican we saw on the way to church today, or that publican who lives down the road, or that publican..."

What particularly irks me is when this is aimed at people who are, for all intents and purposes, living a lifestyle less conformed to the world, and so those who are more conformed to the world then turn this into some kind of self-justification exercise of "Well, those people aren't actually born again." "Amish aren't allowed to read Bibles at home." (Yes, people actually say this.) "The Amish don't know anything about the new birth."