Transitioning toward historic anabaptism

[cmbl]

Speaking personally (and I'm not alone among my peers) I'm transitioning from norms set by Adventures in Odyssey, Rush Limbaugh, and John MacArthur to soteriology that more congruent with the Anabaptist tradition, making the folks in Martyrs' Mirror my heroes, and increasingly catching a vision for the way of Jesus that is fundamentally at odds with politics of power and empire.

I get what you're saying about transitional churches and the move toward fundamental-conservative, but applying this to a thread about Wellspring and Anabaptist Perspectives is, to put it charitably, not true.

This is encouraging to hear! Can you (or others) share more about how people decide to move in this direction?

I ask that discussion of whether or how other moderates or Holdemans are transitional in the other direction not take place in this thread.

[barnhart]

I don't know Jaran but my experience does have some parallels to his. In my teens and 20's I read books that helped me understand how Anabaptist practice, which I understood well, was linked to a robust and viable theology that could be understood as an alternative to the Evangelical gospel rather than out of fashion form of the same thing. The two books that did the most early on were "Will the real heretic stand up" and Yoder's "Politics of Jesus."

[cmbl]

I don't know Jaran but my experience does have some parallels to his. In my teens and 20's I read books that helped me understand how Anabaptist practice, which I understood well, was linked to a robust and viable theology that could be understood as an alternative to the Evangelical gospel rather than out of fashion form of the same thing. The two books that did the most early on were "Will the real heretic stand up" and Yoder's "Politics of Jesus."

Yes, I remember reading Bercot's The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down. And Friedmann's The Theology of Anabaptism is quite good as well. An enthusiastic depiction of the genuine spirituality of the Anabaptist movement, written by a seeker himself.

[Anthony]

I agree to most of the above. Another part is the dominant success traditional anabaptism has had regarding stable church growth and retention. Most groups just fail in this regard. Personally this gives traditional anabaptist legitimacy by the raw fact that “it just works”.

I would normally not give a backwards, traditional christian group any thought if it wasnt for this fact.

[Ernie]

I agree to most of the above. Another part is the dominant success traditional anabaptism has had regarding stable church growth and retention. Most groups just fail in this regard. Personally this gives traditional anabaptist legitimacy by the raw fact that “it just works”.

I would normally not give a backwards, traditional christian group any thought if it wasnt for this fact.

To be fair, there are other traditional people groups around the world who have stable growth and retention. I think this has more to do with "strong group" community dynamics than faith in God or in Jesus.
However, if you want to perpetuate the Christian faith over multiple generations, you do need "strong group" community dynamics.
This does not mean that all people who are part of these communities know God and or have saving faith, but such communities provide the soil or the bedrock or the ecosystem (or whatever metaphor you want to use) where faith can get a good start.
This is why some traditional Anabaptist groups keep sprouting a new crop of vibrant Christianity about every ten years. There might be a lot of toxicity and decay in the soil, but because the Bible is read and because there is a culture that emphasizes at least some of the teachings of Jesus, people who are really seeking have a good head start as compared with soils that have no knowledge of God or a diminished view of God.
For example, there is an Asian church in our town that really struggles with getting its members to produce Christlikeness. Most of the attendees were raised as unbelievers. They learned about Jesus from a wing of Christendom that emphasizes belief in Jesus rather than following Jesus. Some folks from this church feel like something is missing and they are attending our bible studies because they want a faith that works itself out in practical shoe leather. They make all sorts of interesting observations about this.
Folks who grow up in traditional Anabaptist churches without much spiritual life and want more, already know that faith should be worked out in daily life. They already know that community is powerful. They already know that you can't love God and also love the world. These things are already in their consciousness. So this gives them a head start.

[Anthony]

I agree to most of the above. Another part is the dominant success traditional anabaptism has had regarding stable church growth and retention. Most groups just fail in this regard. Personally this gives traditional anabaptist legitimacy by the raw fact that “it just works”.

I would normally not give a backwards, traditional christian group any thought if it wasnt for this fact.

To be fair, there are other traditional people groups around the world who have stable growth and retention. I think this has more to do with "strong group" community dynamics than faith in God or in Jesus.
However, if you want to perpetuate the Christian faith over multiple generations, you do need "strong group" community dynamics.
This does not mean that all people who are part of these communities know God and or have saving faith, but such communities provide the soil or the bedrock or the ecosystem (or whatever metaphor you want to use) where faith can get a good start.
This is why some traditional Anabaptist groups keep sprouting a new crop of vibrant Christianity about every ten years. There might be a lot of toxicity and decay in the soil, but because the Bible is read and because there is a culture that emphasizes at least some of the teachings of Jesus, people who are really seeking have a good head start as compared with soils that have no knowledge of God or a diminished view of God.
For example, there is an Asian church in our town that really struggles with getting its members to produce Christlikeness. Most of the attendees were raised as unbelievers. They learned about Jesus from a wing of Christendom that emphasizes belief in Jesus rather than following Jesus. Some folks from this church feel like something is missing and they are attending our bible studies because they want a faith that works itself out in practical shoe leather. They make all sorts of interesting observations about this.
Folks who grow up in traditional Anabaptist churches without much spiritual life and want more, already know that faith should be worked out in daily life. They already know that community is powerful. They already know that you can't love God and also love the world. These things are already in their consciousness. So this gives them a head start.

I would intepret the “vibrant christiant groups spawning from the rotting and decaying soil” of old order groups as vindication they are more legitimate and the real source of vitality in the anabaptist world. Im not particularly interested in group #500 with the stunning revelation that a christian can have a deep relationship with God beyond following church rules. Maybe as an ex-secular person this feels very obvious in a way that it doesnt for an old order.

[Ernie]

Im not particularly interested in group #500 with the stunning revelation that a christian can have a deep relationship with God beyond following church rules.

I'm attracted to the spawning groups (and the individuals who stay with the Old Orders), who believe you can have a relationship with God while also having and following church rules.

[barnhart]

I would intepret the “vibrant christiant groups spawning from the rotting and decaying soil” of old order groups as vindication they are more legitimate and the real source of vitality in the anabaptist world. Im not particularly interested in group #500 with the stunning revelation that a christian can have a deep relationship with God beyond following church rules. Maybe as an ex-secular person this feels very obvious in a way that it doesnt for an old order.

I see your point, but also remember the view of people who experienced some rot, decay and formalism is also informed by real experience. I have sympathy for those who experience this, it seems a hard road that has multiple undesirable destinations.

[Jaran]

Speaking personally (and I'm not alone among my peers) I'm transitioning from norms set by Adventures in Odyssey, Rush Limbaugh, and John MacArthur to soteriology that more congruent with the Anabaptist tradition, making the folks in Martyrs' Mirror my heroes, and increasingly catching a vision for the way of Jesus that is fundamentally at odds with politics of power and empire.

I get what you're saying about transitional churches and the move toward fundamental-conservative, but applying this to a thread about Wellspring and Anabaptist Perspectives is, to put it charitably, not true.

This is encouraging to hear! Can you (or others) share more about how people decide to move in this direction?

I ask that discussion of whether or how other moderates or Holdemans are transitional in the other direction not take place in this thread.

Thanks for your encouraging interest, cmbl.

In my previous comment, I mentioned my church and my peers, but in my answer, I’d prefer to speak only for myself.

Across my late teens and early 20s, several things helped to shift my perspective:

1. Recognizing Partisan Tellings of History: Taking American history classes at a local community college opened my eyes to the ideological and religious complexities of America’s founding. I realized that, in the voices I was listening to, selective history was being weaponized for tribal purposes. That realization began to shake my thralldom to folks like Rush Limbaugh, Mike Huckabee, and James Dobson.

2. Noticing the Kingdom: Reading David Bercot’s The Kingdom that Turned the World Upside Down was a really big deal for me. It helped me to see the significance of Jesus’ kingship and His exclusive claim on my loyalty to an extent that rules out political activism and state allegiance. It moved me away from the individualistic gospel that Ray Comfort gave me toward a vision centered on the centrality of Jesus.

3. Sages: Taking a church history class with Frank Reed at Sharon Mennonite Bible Institute was hugely formative. He demonstrated a thoughtful, humble, and non-combative way of engaging with ideas while compellingly presenting what the Anabaptist tradition has to offer. At home, I also made friends with two older people who took interest in me and functioned kind of like informal long-term mentors.

4. Lee University: During three years at Lee University, where half my classes were in the School of Religion, I encountered professors influenced by Hauerwas, Yoder, and Bonhoeffer. In particular, Dr. Daniela Augustine’s ethics class where we spent time on Bonhoeffer’s words about nonresistance helped me see that the Anabaptist tradition has something coherent to offer in how Christology and soteriology directly shape how we should engage with the world and live with each other.

5. Books: I read some books. See this as a partial list of the books that helped me, not necessarily as a list that I would recommend to you.

• The Secret of the Strength by Peter Hoover

• The Anabaptist Vision by Harold Bender

• Proper Confidence by Lesslie Newbigin

• A Change of Allegiance by Dean Taylor

• The Naked Anabaptist by Stuart Murray

• Beauty Will Save the World and Farewell to Mars by Brian Zahnd

• The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd

• Assorted writings of Eberhard Arnold

• Stuff by Ron Sider

Also helpful, but in a different way:

• Dante's Divine Comedy

• John Donne's poems, especially "Satire III"

[Ernie]

cmbl, you can tell me if you want this discussed elsewhere...

It seems to me that some groups of Anabaptists are transitioning towards historic Anabaptism in some ways while transitioning away from it in other ways. I'd even go so far as to suggest that most groups are doing this. Each group picks out a few things they want to focus on that is in harmony with early Anabaptists while doing one or more of the following.
1. adopting from a smorgasbord of other ideas and practices that most early Anabaptists would be quite shocked at
2. trying to freeze certain contemporary or "golden era" ideas or practices that most early Anabaptists would be quite shocked at
3. resorting to maintenance mode which results in the net value decreasing each generation because of energy degradation and dissipation