Stereotyping and Overgeneralizing People and Institutions

[JohnH]

I think that we most certainly can judge whether people are real Christians or not. A person who meets any of these descriptions is not a real Christian:

- Cheats on his wife, consumes pornography, acts pious, attends church, finds things to be self righteous about compared to others
- Molests children, tries to escape justice, finds former victims and shames them into silence by telling them they aren't unforgiving if they speak to police, denies he did it despite overwhelming evidence he did.
- Preaches a false gospel that teaches that Jesus is not the Christ and was merely a man with no supernatural powers and is not God or a deity.

I don't think it's a sign of OTC believe to be able to make pronouncements, "This is not what real Christians, real Mennonites, or people who are living victorious Christian lives, filled with the support, and trying to follow Jesus do."

And you just happen to know exactly who does and does not fit these descriptions, which accusations are true, which are false, because you know the hearts of all men?

I don't know very many people that well, and I doubt you do. I am fairly certain almost none of knows this for most of the people whose lives have been discussed here on MN, often with the conviction that people can somehow know these things confidently based on what they feel.

The context of the discussion was about whether or not we can judge if we would go to communion with someone.

And yes, we should know our brethren in our own church well enough to know if things like adultery. False doctrine, harming children etc are going on.

We should also say, with boldness, that people who do the above things are not real Christians.

[Neto]

And, as long as the judgement in question is based on Scripture, it isn't a personal judgement, it is 'merely' an application of GOD's judgements.

Isn't that a personal judgment of what I think scripture says?

I was answering in the context of the actions of a local fellowship of Jesus followers. It does, however, also come down to personal convictions. If we decide that we will refuse to do this, which has been commanded in Scripture, then we are disobedient children. If we do so without concern for the erring one, or, as you suggested, use our own personal judgement without rightly dividing the Word of God, than we are also in error, and in need of rebuke by some other Christian who will make true a judgement.

[Ernie]

The point is...pronouncements about where the Kingdom of God is found, with regard to institutions, is perhaps a path fraught with peril.

I don't think someone needs to be OTC to agree that the Kingdom of God isn't found in these places:

We are talking about pronouncing where the Kingdom of God is found, not about where it isn't found.

No disagreement with that. I'm guessing the only folks on this forum who disagree with this are those who embrace One True Church theology and apply that to their particular church.

I think you just engaged in a stereotype and an overgeneralization of people and institutions.

Do you know of anyone on this forum who is not OTC/particular church who would pronounce where the Kingdom of God is found, with regard to institutions?

Just because an OTC person says that the kingdom of God is found in their church, does not mean that all OTC/particular church folks say this.

[Szdfan]

So when I Google “transitional Anabaptism,” Google AI says the following:

Transitional Anabaptism is a term primarily used within sociologist and church forum circles to describe the dynamic of individuals or entire congregations moving away from strict, traditional Anabaptist groups toward more assimilated, progressive, or mainstream evangelical practices.Rather than representing a single official denomination, it describes a bridge or a stage of cultural and theological transition.

Key Characteristics of a Transitional ChurchIn discussions surrounding modern plain, Amish, and Mennonites, a "transitional" congregation typically exhibits specific demographic patterns:

Sourced from stricter groups: The majority of the members grew up in or left a more conservative, traditional, or "plain" Anabaptist background (such as Old Order Amish, conservative Mennonites, or Dunkard Brethren).

Retention patterns: While they retain certain Anabaptist values, they struggle to attract or retain multi-generational members from completely unchurched or non-Anabaptist backgrounds.Outward migration: These churches frequently act as a stepping stone. Members often stay for a few years before moving on to mainstream Western evangelical churches.

And then there’s this tidbit —

The movement is typically driven by a desire for greater religious liberty from community constraints, a shift toward modern lifestyle conveniences, and the adoption of modern evangelical theology (which prioritizes personal faith over strict lifestyle rules).

For contrast, groups like the Holdeman Mennonites or Reformed Mennonites are considered "non-transitional" because they enforce strict shunning (avoidance) if a member leaves, meaning very few people use them as a temporary transitional path.

Huh.

So where did Google AI repeatedly list as the source for this information?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source= ... 8616105000

This forum.

MennoNet is the primary source for Google AI’s statement on “Transitional Anabaptism.”

So…from what I can tell “transitional Anabaptism” isn’t an actual sociological term, but a MennoNet category used as a rhetorical weapon against less conservative Anabaptists that Google AI has confused as an actual sociological term.

This is an example of “epistemic laundering.”

[JohnH]

So…from what I can tell “transitional Anabaptism” isn’t an actual sociological term, but a MennoNet category used as a rhetorical weapon against less conservative Anabaptists that Google AI has confused as an actual sociological term.

This is an example of “epistemic laundering.”

Ernie has expressly stated it when he coined the term to describe a phenomenon he has observed, and then described the traits therein.

This isn't "epistemic laundering", Ernie, myself, or others have not run off and used a Google AI search result to try to prove we are right or to appeal to some kind of authority by citing Google.

used as a rhetorical weapon against less conservative Anabaptists

It's merely an observation, not a weapon. If you think conservatism is bad, for example, then presumably you would think transitional Anabaptism is a good thing, since it leads people away from conservatism.

[JohnH]

We are talking about pronouncing where the Kingdom of God is found, not about where it isn't found.

I think it can be found many places. Where I find I part ways with some people on this forum is the idea that I should commune with absolutely anybody regardless of their practice and belief. I don't agree with that.

Do you know of anyone on this forum who is not OTC/particular church who would pronounce where the Kingdom of God is found, with regard to institutions?

I don't think the kingdom of God is represented by some man-made institution. However, I do think the church is real, and that it has a real, physical manifestation on earth, composed of believers who do things that a church does, such as baptism members, conduct communion, and excommunicate members who fall away, as the apostles taught. I do not consider the kingdom of God some "amorphous" thing.

In short, I reject Luther's stories about a visible and invisible church and likewise reject the idea of church as a "wheat and tares" place.

[Ernie]

So…from what I can tell “transitional Anabaptism” isn’t an actual sociological term,

What are actual sociological terms and who is allowed to make those in your opinion?

[Ernie]

Ernie has expressly stated it when he coined the term to describe a phenomenon he has observed, and then described the traits therein.

Did I say I coined the term? I don't remember at this point if the term was original with me (I sort of think not) but the concept is definitely not original with me.

[ohio jones]

Where I find I part ways with some people on this forum is the idea that I should commune with absolutely anybody regardless of their practice and belief. I don't agree with that.

Not that I agree either, but it's a question of what the focus of the communion service is or should be. "Do this in remembrance of your brothers' practice and belief" ?

[JohnH]

Where I find I part ways with some people on this forum is the idea that I should commune with absolutely anybody regardless of their practice and belief. I don't agree with that.

Not that I agree either, but it's a question of what the focus of the communion service is or should be. "Do this in remembrance of your brothers' practice and belief" ?

A common rendering of 1 Corinthians 7 is that it precludes communing with someone engaging in gross immorality.