Bunny Trails

[Thomas_muntzer]

Generally speaking I am more concerned with actual adultery than divorce and remarriage. (I left a church because they tolerated actual adultery whilst making hay of not having divorce and remarriage. I think actual, simple adultery is worse than D&R.)

I agree with you; there are sins that are far more serious than others.

Returning to the original point, Trump is hardly an example of Christian virtue; his sins are very similar to those of other presidents of this century. As for his administrative and economic management—compounded by the disastrous war in Iran and the recent rise in 30-year bond yields (a historic indicator predicting economic recession)—we can state that his tenure has been the worst of the 21st century: a complete farce and a fraud.

[Soloist]

Generally speaking, the plain world would be far more concerned about a family choosing to explicitly watch worldly entertainment together vs someone who "falls into" doing a bit of it in private on their own time.

When I talk about watching a movie as a family, I am clearly referring to Christian or educational themes—not Marvel movies or reality shows.

I agree. Most plain people will still be aghast at that.

Wife: as long as it’s not the plain people in his church, I don’t really see an issue with it. I do think he has a point about judging people who openly do the longer stuff like documentaries/Christian film when their church accepts it, and simultaneously giving a pass to people who regularly fall into short reels or YouTube entertainment/news when their church standards condemn it. Not doing this to endorse Christian movies, but I’m just saying that at least they are in the open about it.

[JohnH]

Generally speaking I am more concerned with actual adultery than divorce and remarriage. (I left a church because they tolerated actual adultery whilst making hay of not having divorce and remarriage. I think actual, simple adultery is worse than D&R.)

I agree with you; there are sins that are far more serious than others.

Returning to the original point, Trump is hardly an example of Christian virtue; his sins are very similar to those of other presidents of this century. As for his administrative and economic management—compounded by the disastrous war in Iran and the recent rise in 30-year bond yields (a historic indicator predicting economic recession)—we can state that his tenure has been the worst of the 21st century: a complete farce and a fraud.

I don’t think he has ever claimed to be living a Christian life.

I would have a hard time claiming his current tenure is a worse farce and fraud though than:

- Bush’s bumbling handling of 9/11, with massive loss of civil liberties, demonisation of Middle Eastern peoples, and multitrillion pointless war in the Middle East and Afghanistan
- Obama’s horrible handling of the 2008 housing meltdown and related financial chicanery
- The COVID nonsense (remember when it was two weeks to “flatten the curve?”), which dragged on into 2 years with more experiments at stripping us of civil liberties, banning going to church (but political protests were OK as long as they were for the “correct” political alignment), and trying to divide America based on one’s level of enthusiasm for masks and vaccines
- A President whom it became apparent was not really in charge of his faculties, making me wonder who was actually running the country for those 4 years.

Trump has 2 ½ years left to go, but to be “the worst” will be a high bar to clear.

[JohnH]

When I talk about watching a movie as a family, I am clearly referring to Christian or educational themes—not Marvel movies or reality shows.

I agree. Most plain people will still be aghast at that.

Wife: as long as it’s not the plain people in his church, I don’t really see an issue with it. I do think he has a point about judging people who openly do the longer stuff like documentaries/Christian film when their church accepts it, and simultaneously giving a pass to people who regularly fall into short reels or YouTube entertainment/news when their church standards condemn it. Not doing this to endorse Christian movies, but I’m just saying that at least they are in the open about it.

I guess in our circles nobody thinks they are really glorifying Christ when they watch short form videos. Most would hesitate though to sit and watch hours long entertainment with the whole family.

My kids think anything on a screen with a > arrow is a video and really want to see it badly. I can only imagine the torment if they actually got to watch feature length films.

[Thomas_muntzer]

I don’t think he has ever claimed to be living a Christian life.

I would have a hard time claiming his current tenure is a worse farce and fraud though than:

- Bush’s bumbling handling of 9/11, with massive loss of civil liberties, demonisation of Middle Eastern peoples, and multitrillion pointless war in the Middle East and Afghanistan
- Obama’s horrible handling of the 2008 housing meltdown and related financial chicanery
- The COVID nonsense (remember when it was two weeks to “flatten the curve?”), which dragged on into 2 years with more experiments at stripping us of civil liberties, banning going to church (but political protests were OK as long as they were for the “correct” political alignment), and trying to divide America based on one’s level of enthusiasm for masks and vaccines
- A President whom it became apparent was not really in charge of his faculties, making me wonder who was actually running the country for those 4 years.

Trump has 2 ½ years left to go, but to be “the worst” will be a high bar to clear.

Yes, it is true that we need to wait until Trump finishes his term to compare him with other presidents, but if the war with Iran continues into next year, the coming economic recession will be far worse than the one in 2008.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I wonder about higher education and how that might fit into this conversation. The hosts and guests of AP are much more likely to have college degrees as compared to the average plain Anabaptist. My perception is higher education shapes the content of AP: what topics are chosen, how the conversations happen, etc. There's deep suspicion among plain Anabaptists about higher education, so it doesn't surprise me that some plain Anabaptists would be suspicious of AP.

I'm a former conservative Mennonite with a college degree. Make of that what you will.

By that logic, the Old Order River Brethren should be the most liberal church of all.

There’s an old saying of “the exception proves the rule”.

As a reminder, a majority of the original River Brethren ended up in the United Methodist Church.

You know very well the group I am talking about. From the three way division forward, that simply is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Order_River_Brethren

I suspect you are conflating them with the Otterbien-Boheam United Brethren, the vast majority of whom wound up with the United Methodist church through the Evangelical United Brethren.

The Old Order River Brethren are solid conservatives, and have a very high degree of education. I personally know at least half a dozen postgraduate degrees. Living proof that education doesn’t necessarily lead to a loss of “plainness “ (whatever that actually is) or a decay of commitment.

[JohnH]

I don’t think he has ever claimed to be living a Christian life.

I would have a hard time claiming his current tenure is a worse farce and fraud though than:

- Bush’s bumbling handling of 9/11, with massive loss of civil liberties, demonisation of Middle Eastern peoples, and multitrillion pointless war in the Middle East and Afghanistan
- Obama’s horrible handling of the 2008 housing meltdown and related financial chicanery
- The COVID nonsense (remember when it was two weeks to “flatten the curve?”), which dragged on into 2 years with more experiments at stripping us of civil liberties, banning going to church (but political protests were OK as long as they were for the “correct” political alignment), and trying to divide America based on one’s level of enthusiasm for masks and vaccines
- A President whom it became apparent was not really in charge of his faculties, making me wonder who was actually running the country for those 4 years.

Trump has 2 ½ years left to go, but to be “the worst” will be a high bar to clear.

Yes, it is true that we need to wait until Trump finishes his term to compare him with other presidents, but if the war with Iran continues into next year, the coming economic recession will be far worse than the one in 2008.

I very much doubt that. War is quite profitable, as the wars that dragged on from 2001 - 2021 proved.

[JohnH]

By that logic, the Old Order River Brethren should be the most liberal church of all.

There’s an old saying of “the exception proves the rule”.

As a reminder, a majority of the original River Brethren ended up in the United Methodist Church.

You know very well the group I am talking about. From the three way division forward, that simply is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Order_River_Brethren

I suspect you are conflating them with the Otterbien-Boheam United Brethren, the vast majority of whom wound up with the United Methodist church through the Evangelical United Brethren.

The Old Order River Brethren are solid conservatives, and have a very high degree of education. I personally know at least half a dozen postgraduate degrees. Living proof that education doesn’t necessarily lead to a loss of “plainness “ (whatever that actually is) or a decay of commitment.

It’s a group of half a dozen congregations with a few hundred people. It is hardly proof that the worldly pursuit of the pride of higher education leads to a more Christ-centred life.

I note your mocking tone about “plainness”, so apparently it is not something you value. I personally value plain Anabaptists continuing to be plain instead of conforming to the world, and avoiding higher education (generally speaking) is an important part of that. (Most plain Anabaptists consider high school part of higher education and avoid that as well; we aren’t just talking about college here.)

[nett]

It is most assuredly not. I know the pastors and overseeing bishop personally. This one is in Pennsylvania. I think the one he is talking about is in Ohio.

I think you would do well to stop posting about this.

I am frankly tired of thee attacks on Moderate Conservatives. There is a history that likely informs opinions. If someone has an ax to grind, what is posted should considered in light of this. There has been specific posts about a church that I have strong ties to.

I attend a Moderate Conservative church. I don't think it's all a 'lost cause' any more than the Holdemans are a lost cause. I see a lot of concerning movement in both of them, yet am very much a part of it.

There is a place for debate and disagreement. The personal attacks are unwarranted, and you've also been completely wrong with yours facts more than a few times.

Feeling strongly about these attacks does not justify fallacious slander in response.

[Judas Maccabeus]

There’s an old saying of “the exception proves the rule”.

As a reminder, a majority of the original River Brethren ended up in the United Methodist Church.

You know very well the group I am talking about. From the three way division forward, that simply is not true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Order_River_Brethren

I suspect you are conflating them with the Otterbien-Boheam United Brethren, the vast majority of whom wound up with the United Methodist church through the Evangelical United Brethren.

The Old Order River Brethren are solid conservatives, and have a very high degree of education. I personally know at least half a dozen postgraduate degrees. Living proof that education doesn’t necessarily lead to a loss of “plainness “ (whatever that actually is) or a decay of commitment.

It’s a group of half a dozen congregations with a few hundred people. It is hardly proof that the worldly pursuit of the pride of higher education leads to a more Christ-centred life.

I note your mocking tone about “plainness”, so apparently it is not something you value. I personally value plain Anabaptists continuing to be plain instead of conforming to the world, and avoiding higher education (generally speaking) is an important part of that. (Most plain Anabaptists consider high school part of higher education and avoid that as well; we aren’t just talking about college here.)

It seems to be whatever you want it to be. The definition I see in this is “whatever agrees with the current position of my group.”

The ultimate non-plainness is spending huge amounts of time on social media railing against groups you feel are not sufficiently plain.

To be really “plain” get off of the internet and social media.