joshuabgood wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 10:06 am
Folks need to justify what they want to do...the Curse of Ham was a convenient way to do that.
The first time I even heard about said curse was reading Barbara Kingsolver’s The Poisonwood Bible.
Wife: If I’m right about which book that was, that was so sad and morbid. I wouldn’t really be surprised if my family had some beliefs like that that they just never told me about. it seems like there was an era that was really popular.
I probably had heard it at some point growing up in books or history, but the first time I really remember it was being surprised about it from an older Mennonite couple in Oregon.
Even though I grew up near a small town (in Oklahoma) with a well documented violent prejudice against African-Americans, I don't think I ever heard of this justification for it until I came here to Holmes County, Ohio, and that from a brother in our congregation. Whatever the curse on Canaan was, I think that it was erased through the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Chosen/Anointed One of God the Father.
barnhart wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 8:11 am
Things don't need to be logical for people to believe them.
Wife: I think some people might believe it just because that was what they were taught by their parents, and they never really thought to question it. I don’t know that it actually plays out in their life choices, but it feels like something that should be corrected, especially as we do missions and have people of different ethnicities come into our churches.
I find this a lot in some segments of the Plain Anabaptist world. Whatever parents, preachers, neighbors, or other person of influence has to say about something, people don't generally think it through or study it out but just pass it along from generation to generation. This happens on a slew of topics. Whenever a certain name or topic comes up, there are the standard quips and quotes that get brought up over and over.
1 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
The curse was on Canaan not Ham so that theory is DOA. Noah cursed Canaan because Ham „uncovered Noah‘s nakedness“ which is a euphemism for having intercourse with Noahs wife / his mother to assert dominance (think of Absalom taking David‘s harem), and Canaan was the incestuous issue of that intercourse, which is why Noah cursed Canaan and not Ham.
Swiss Brah wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 1:17 pm
The curse was on Canaan not Ham so that theory is DOA. Noah cursed Canaan because Ham „uncovered Noah‘s nakedness“ which is a euphemism for having intercourse with Noahs wife / his mother to assert dominance (think of Absalom taking David‘s harem), and Canaan was the incestuous issue of that intercourse, which is why Noah cursed Canaan and not Ham.
Wife: I don’t think I agree with that interpretation (I just assumed Canaan was a chip off the old block), but I definitely agree that the curse was on Canaan and not any of Hams other children. I just chose the title because I didn’t want to give the spoiler alert in the title and that’s how I always had it described to me.
Last edited by Soloist on Mon Sep 14, 2026 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Neto wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 12:57 pm
Even though I grew up near a small town (in Oklahoma) with a well documented violent prejudice against African-Americans, I don't think I ever heard of this justification for it until I came here to Holmes County, Ohio, and that from a brother in our congregation. Whatever the curse on Canaan was, I think that it was erased through the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Chosen/Anointed One of God the Father.
Neto wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 12:57 pm
Even though I grew up near a small town (in Oklahoma) with a well documented violent prejudice against African-Americans, I don't think I ever heard of this justification for it until I came here to Holmes County, Ohio, and that from a brother in our congregation. Whatever the curse on Canaan was, I think that it was erased through the death and resurrection of Jesus, the Chosen/Anointed One of God the Father.
Wife: yeah, I had a non Mennonite family member say that Muslims could not come to Christ because of the curse on Ishmael not being the son of faith but the law. I pointed out that we weren’t part of any line, and we’re supposed to go out to all nations. Also, Isaiah 60 talks about some of Ishmael’s sons’ tribes coming to worship in the temple, which I’m assuming is a prophecy.
Not to mention the fact that all these thousands of years later, we can’t tell everybody’s exact ethnicity, and Muslims for example come from a variety of ethnicities, including some Europeans who might have been kidnapped during the Turkish raids. And if there were still Canaanites around, they probably intermarried with Israelites and who knows what other ethnicities at least a few times over the last few millennia.
Soloist wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 1:25 pm
Not to mention the fact that all these thousands of years later, we can’t tell everybody’s exact ethnicity, and Muslims for example come from a variety of ethnicities, including some Europeans who might have been kidnapped during the Turkish raids. And if there were still Canaanites around, they probably intermarried with Israelites and who knows what other ethnicities at least a few times over the last few millennia.
Race essentialism is a tough nut to crack, it keeps coming back like a noxious weed.
JohnH wrote: ↑Mon Sep 14, 2026 2:35 pm
I was under the impression this was primarily a Mormon thing. That's where I'd heard of it from.
Wife: that wouldn’t be surprising. Just like they decided native Americans came from one of Joseph’s sons.
To be fair to the Mormons that sort of thing was popular when they were founded. The distinction they hold is not one of creativity but rather longevity as they never moved away from it. Google "British Israelism" if you want to go down that sort of rabbit hole. I have ancestors who were influenced by that.