Litmus tests for various Christian groups

[Ernie]

The natural endpoint of this direction is to accept all legitimate groups of believers by denying they exist outside your own.

Is this what you meant to say?

I think so. If you follow the logic, this is where it leads. Most groups don't go that far.

Then I am not following your logic. What is "this direction"?

[ken_sylvania]

The natural endpoint of this direction is to accept all legitimate groups of believers by denying they exist outside your own.

Is this what you meant to say?

I think so. If you follow the logic, this is where it leads. Most groups don't go that far.

By "accept all legitimate groups of believers by denying they exist outside your own" are referring to the concept that "my group is the only legitimate group of believers, I accept my group, ergo I accept all legitimate groups"?

Are you referring to that as the natural endpoint of a "tiered" fellowship or something different?

[joshuabgood]

I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

This perspective requires that a person assess whether everyone is in Christian fellowship correct? By drawing the line on communion/breaking of bread, one does not need to make that assessment.

I am not sure if I am following.

But I think, refusing Christian fellowship/community/communion (which to me are inseparable I think), is making an assessment.

[barnhart]

Is this what you meant to say?

I think so. If you follow the logic, this is where it leads. Most groups don't go that far.

Then I am not following your logic. What is "this direction"?

The direction of full fellowship with all "real" believers. Eventually you arrive back at the point where all real believers are already in your group. This is roughly the opposite of your "tier" approach.

[JohnH]

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

This perspective requires that a person assess whether everyone is in Christian fellowship correct? By drawing the line on communion/breaking of bread, one does not need to make that assessment.

I am not sure if I am following.

But I think, refusing Christian fellowship/community/communion (which to me are inseparable I think), is making an assessment.

It’s not a refusal. If you really do you want to commune with a specific congregation, you can apply to be a member or a visiting member there and take the necessary steps to examine yourself and open yourself up for brotherly counsel.

[Ernie]

I am not sure if I am following.

But I think, refusing Christian fellowship/community/communion (which to me are inseparable I think), is making an assessment.

There are four reasons why I may not commune with someone who professes Christianity.

1. A person professes Christianity, but I don't know enough about them to know if their life gives evidence of the fruit of the Spirit or whether they are walking in obedience to God. If I knew more about them, I may conclude that we are both in Christ and could then commune with them. I can still fellowship with this person to a certain degree as I get to know them.
2. A person professes Christianity, and shows some spiritual fruit, but because they purposefully reject some plain teachings of the New Testament, I'm not sure where they are with God. As such, I neither condemn them as outside of Christ, nor determine that they are in Christ. I can still fellowship with this person to the degree that they are following Jesus and the teaching of the Apostles.
3. A person professes Christianity but is not yet baptized. I can fellowship with this person.
4. A person professes Christianity but I either I see no spiritual fruit, or I see sin that is not being repented of. There is no real fellowship with this person.

I interact with people in all four of these categories every week.

The alternative as I see it is to commune with anyone who wants to commune with me.

[joshuabgood]

I am not sure if I am following.

But I think, refusing Christian fellowship/community/communion (which to me are inseparable I think), is making an assessment.

There are four reasons why I may not commune with someone who professes Christianity.

1. A person professes Christianity, but I don't know enough about them to know if their life gives evidence of the fruit of the Spirit or whether they are walking in obedience to God. If I knew more about them, I may conclude that we are both in Christ and could then commune with them. I can still fellowship with this person to a certain degree as I get to know them.
2. A person professes Christianity, and shows some spiritual fruit, but because they purposefully reject some plain teachings of the New Testament, I'm not sure where they are with God. As such, I neither condemn them as outside of Christ, nor determine that they are in Christ. I can still fellowship with this person to the degree that they are following Jesus and the teaching of the Apostles.
3. A person professes Christianity but is not yet baptized. I can fellowship with this person.
4. A person professes Christianity but I either I see no spiritual fruit, or I see sin that is not being repented of. There is no real fellowship with this person.

I interact with people in all four of these categories every week.

The alternative as I see it is to commune with anyone who wants to commune with me.

My question is, what Biblical data is their for denying/refusing Christian fellowship/communion with someone that is a disciple of Jesus and is displaying the gifts of the spirit. If I am understanding you right, you are saying you would commune with such a person. And by extension, you are not comfortable denying such a person communion if they don't, say, wear a plain suit, or wear long sleeve pants all the time, etc. Is that right?

What I hear you saying is you "might" deny a person communion that purposefully and willfully denies the plain teaching of the NT.

[Ernie]

My question is, what Biblical data is their for denying/refusing Christian fellowship/communion with someone that is a disciple of Jesus and is displaying the gifts of the spirit. If I am understanding you right, you are saying you would commune with such a person. And by extension, you are not comfortable denying such a person communion if they don't, say, wear a plain suit, or wear long sleeve pants all the time, etc. Is that right?

Correct. I'm answering this from a personal perspective.

At the same time, I respect the right of churches to decide what they consider modest, etc. and to expect that of those they commune with.

What I hear you saying is you "might" deny a person communion that purposefully and willfully denies the plain teaching of the N.T.

Yes. For example, if a person defends the right to bear and use the sword, after having been shown the teachings of the N.T., that is a big enough deal to me to not commune with them. But this is something that I consider very plain teaching. I realize that others do not consider this a plain teaching.

Other things do not rise to this level in my mind.
Foe example, if a person thinks that practicing the Holy Kiss or anointing themselves with oil before they fast is not for today, I could show some forbearance, even if I or my church expected members to practice these things. (FWIW, I have not yet started washing my face and anointing my head with oil before I fast, and I don't know of anyone who does.)

[ken_sylvania]

(FWIW, I have not yet started washing my face and anointing my head with oil before I fast, and I don't know of anyone who does.)

I think you should wash your face. Just good basic hygene.
Anointing one's head when fasting is not unheard of among conservative Mennonites, although I could say if the percentage of men who do so is closer to 10% or 50% of those who fast.

[ken_sylvania]

I'm still interested in an answer to the question below that I asked earlier.

I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

That's a fair question. To help flesh that out just a bit more, do you see biblical data supporting any kind of "tiered" fellowship where there are differing degrees of closeness of fellowship within the spectrum of those who follow Christ?