Litmus tests for various Christian groups

[joshuabgood]

I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

[Ernie]

I understand, thanks. For the sake of discussion and this being an Anabaptist forum/discussion (generally speaking), I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Heirby, I assume your church would allow you to commune with other Anabaptist churches? Does your church allow folks from other Anabaptist churches to commune with you?

Moving this to a new thread. https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9141

[Ernie]

Here is what AI gives me for the OP question.

How would you tweak these?

Conservative Anabaptist — Head covering for women, plain/modest dress, nonresistance, separation from the world, and conformity to church standards.

Charismatic / Pentecostal — Raising hands in worship, speaking in tongues, expressive worship, and emphasis on experiencing the Holy Spirit.

Reformed / Calvinist — Doctrines of grace, five points of Calvinism, God’s sovereignty, and doctrinal precision.

Fundamentalist Baptist — KJV use, conservative dress, abstinence from alcohol, and separation from worldly influences.

Independent Fundamental Baptist — KJV-onlyism, strict personal separation, conservative dress, and abstinence from alcohol, dancing, and theaters.

Evangelical — Personal conversion or being “born again,” a personal relationship with Jesus, evangelism, and emphasis on biblical authority.

Holiness / Wesleyan — Sanctified living, separation from worldly entertainment, conservative personal standards, and emphasis on holiness.

Churches of Christ — Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, a cappella worship, and weekly observance of the Lord’s Supper.

Seventh-day Adventist — Saturday Sabbath observance, dietary practices, and abstinence from alcohol and tobacco.

Confessional Lutheran — Adherence to the Lutheran Confessions, infant baptism, and a strong sacramental understanding of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper.

Roman Catholic — Mass attendance, receiving the sacraments, confession, acceptance of Church teaching, and devotional practices such as the Rosary.

Traditionalist Catholic — Traditional Latin Mass, traditional devotional practices, modest dress, and adherence to older Catholic forms and disciplines.

Eastern Orthodox — Divine Liturgy, fasting, confession, icons, and participation in Orthodox sacramental life.

Amish — Ordnung, plain dress, nonresistance, restrictions on technology, separation from the world, and submission to church discipline.

Messianic Jewish / Hebrew Roots — Sabbath observance, biblical dietary practices, biblical feast days, and use of Hebrew terminology.

Progressive Christianity — Inclusion, social justice, women in ministry, LGBTQ affirmation, and openness to reinterpreting traditional doctrines.

Christian nationalist-oriented Christian subcultures — Political positions, voting priorities, opposition to secularism, and beliefs about America’s Christian identity.

Non-Christian

Latter-day Saints (LDS) — Temple worthiness, tithing, abstinence from coffee, alcohol, and tobacco, church attendance, and temple garments.

Jehovah’s Witnesses — Door-to-door evangelism, meeting attendance, political neutrality, rejection of military service, and avoidance of birthdays and many holidays.

[ken_sylvania]

I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

That's a fair question. To help flesh that out just a bit more, do you see biblical data supporting any kind of "tiered" fellowship where there are differing degrees of closeness of fellowship within the spectrum of those who follow Christ?

[barnhart]

I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

That's a fair question. To help flesh that out just a bit more, do you see biblical data supporting any kind of "tiered" fellowship where there are differing degrees of closeness of fellowship within the spectrum of those who follow Christ?

The natural endpoint of this direction is to accept all legitimate groups of believers by denying they exist outside your own. The opposite is of course to deny it is possible to apostatize by accepting everyone.

[Ernie]

The natural endpoint of this direction is to accept all legitimate groups of believers by denying they exist outside your own.

Is this what you meant to say?

[JohnH]

Ernie,

Please be aware that AI relies heavily on past MennoNet / MennoDiscuss posts to come up with its information, so in a certain sense, it is often just regurgitating your own posts (and mine).

So it can be a source of accurate information... but not really new information, and often not reliable.

There is a factoid enshrined in most AIs at this point that comes from a Wikipedia article I wrote over a decade ago. It had a factual error in it, but it is in every AI's training set now, and is impossible to get removed. I have since updated the error on Wikipedia, but this error has now even replicated into other places and is essentially "authoritative". (I mis-attributed the author of a book, amongst other things; the actual author of the book is not known, but the AI will confidently tell you the bogus information I put there.)

[Ernie]

I wonder if it might be less confusing if "communing" (ie. sharing in communion, ie. bread and wine) and "fellowshipping" are clarified rather than used synonymously, considering that partaking of communion emblems is often restricted to members only or a particular litmus test (historically and contemporarily) among Anabaptists, particular more conservative ones, whereas fellowshipping tends to be far broader and more flexible.. Just a thought for anyone, not directly to Ken.

Here again, from my perspective, I wonder if this isn't a distinction without a difference. Where is the biblical data supporting such a framework dichotomy, where one would be in Christian fellowship and not "technically" in communion or breaking of bread. That is the model that I am trying to gracefully challenge...while at the same time, pointing out that "withholding" fellowship, which is in fact a "litmus" test, at least of sorts.

This perspective requires that a person assess whether everyone is in Christian fellowship correct? By drawing the line on communion/breaking of bread, one does not need to make that assessment.

[JohnH]

I commune with those whom my congregation determines are living repentant, Christian lives, and are willing to open themselves up to examination. In practice, making a solid determination of that requires being in very, very close fellowship, including submitting underneath church leadership who likewise is willing to commune with one another and work together and avoid conflicts and reconcile any differences in doctrine or practice before communion time.

This ends up being a "denomination".

It is about impossible for me to stroll into some other church and decide if they are all living right lives and if they've examined themselves properly, lived right throughout the year, etc. - likewise, it would be very difficult for some church that my own church has no connections with to do the same to me. So in practice, we end up having close communion.

As far as "litmus tests" for other Christian groups, here is what my church does:

- If we are in close fellowship, we remain in close fellowship with the other congregations and members throughout the year and maintain regular contact by having our leadership share service on committees, attend ministers' and deacons' meetings, and so forth. We also agree to have our entire membership assemble periodically for a general conference. When that isn't possible due to borders and visa situations, we make great efforts to have regional conferences and make efforts for leaders from other regions to be there.

- If we aren't in close fellowship, we decide we can't be applying litmus tests to such a group, and allow them to be judged before God without needing to sit under my own judgment. We don't commune closely not because we think they are wrong, but because we aren't close enough to know if they are right.

My own church group may be a little different than other Anabaptists in that it tries to avoid "ranking" other churches and applying litmus tests to them; we certainly do find we feel closer fellowship with some Christians than we do others, though, regardless of what church they might be a part of. I have really appreciated in particular some non-Mennonite pastors in my life at various points in time. I also appreciate some of what I see area churches doing in my region, even if I don't feel united with them in doctrine or practice.

[barnhart]

The natural endpoint of this direction is to accept all legitimate groups of believers by denying they exist outside your own.

Is this what you meant to say?

I think so. If you follow the logic, this is where it leads. Most groups don't go that far.