Fraud Throughout Driving Schools

[JohnH]

Likewise, I would be in favour of churches, private individuals, and so forth holding English classes to help teach English to people who want to be truck drivers.

Then they would not be a danger to themselves or others when they can't understand a road sign warning of construction ahead, or a detour, and so forth.

There is no need for government "oversight" of such English classes. A simple proficiency test when applying for one's CDL and being tested for it would be enough. In my opinion, it should be the same for the rest of trucking; however, currently there is a good bit more required.

I wanted to get my CDL but had trouble passing my medical. I was advised if I went to a certain place, they wouldn't ask for detailed medical records, and I would be "guaranteed to pass". I thought better of doing this and preferred to get my medical certificate from the same health network where my primary care physician is, and to perhaps fix whatever the medical problems are, before getting behind the wheel.

This is the exact kind of fraud that is a problem. If someone can't legitimately pass a medical, they shouldn't be driving a truck. If they can't understand English, they shouldn't either.

[Bootstrap]

without feeling like we don’t care about people. That’s just not the case. At all.

Then I assume we both care a LOT about how these people are treated. For instance, whether people who have never been convicted of a crime are harassed online, with their names going viral. Whether parents and children are separated. What conditions are like in the prison camps. That kind of thing.

Caring expresses itself in words of compassion. And offers to help. And being considerate in the way we talk about people who are in very difficult circumstances.

Well I never advocated for mistreatment of people.

I know you didn’t. But that’s not quite what I was asking.

James says even “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed” isn’t enough if we don’t respond to someone’s actual needs. “I never advocated for their mistreatment” is a considerably lower bar than that.

I’m asking whether we can look at people who are frightened, detained, separated from family, publicly humiliated, or caught up in an immigration system they don’t understand, and actually have compassion for them — regardless of what we think immigration policy should be.

But thanks to the president that I did not vote for, millions of people entered our country illegally many who were let out of prisons in other countries for us to take- we have drug trafficking, sex trafficking, and all kinds of other things that our law enforcement is up against every single day. They did not create this problem. The previous administration did so blame the right people!!

But this is exactly where I think we keep talking past each other. I’m talking about how we treat particular human beings, and you keep answering by telling me who is to blame for illegal immigration.

Those are different questions.

We can believe that immigration laws should be enforced, care about victims of crime and trafficking, and appreciate the difficult work law enforcement does. None of that requires us to stop asking whether the particular person standing in front of us is being treated justly and humanely.

And if someone is being mistreated, “the previous administration created this problem” doesn’t answer that question. The people exercising power over that person now are responsible for how they exercise that power now.

[Bootstrap]

Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down. And licensed ones should be monitored. This is, of course, called "regulation", something the government has done less and less of recently, especially in areas where fraud is rampant. I think this should also be extended to tax fraud, stock fraud, cryptocurrency fraud and money laundering, and other areas of fraud.

Yes, some people think that the answer to everything is regulations and more regulations.

Why should Church-sponsored drivers ed classes be shut down? They are, by definition, unlicensed private driver education or training schools.

I was talking, of course, about the unlicensed commercial driving schools who are responsible for the problems raised in this thread. But that does raise a question I can't answer for all states: who exactly certifies what about a new driver? I don't think CDL trucking schools administer the CDL licensing tests or issue the license, I think states normally do that. Ditto for normal driver's ed, I don't think schools or churches administer the written and driving tests, do they? I have taught people to drive, I am not certified to do so, I did not make official legally-binding claims about their ability to drive as a result. That's not a problem.

Regardless, whoever certifies that a driver is competent and should be licensed and allowed to drive, commercial or otherwise, really should be held responsible for actually doing the required tests and accurately reporting the results. Even if it were a volunteer church-run program, any official certification the program makes should be accurate and truthful.

[Bootstrap]

Well no, that's precisely what we are not doing. We are not creating a clearly defined, orderly, legal way to handle immigration.

We have, however, made a clearly defined, orderly, and legal way to obtain a commercial drivers' licence. For whatever reasons, some drivers are choosing not to follow that established, well defined path, nor comply with the applicable laws and regulations.

Why can't we just talk about the topic at hand? Are you opposed to orderly regulation of truck driving?

I'm surprised by your question. I think that's exactly what my responses have been advocating.

[ken_sylvania]

Unlicensed driving schools should be shut down. And licensed ones should be monitored. This is, of course, called "regulation", something the government has done less and less of recently, especially in areas where fraud is rampant. I think this should also be extended to tax fraud, stock fraud, cryptocurrency fraud and money laundering, and other areas of fraud.

Yes, some people think that the answer to everything is regulations and more regulations.

Why should Church-sponsored drivers ed classes be shut down? They are, by definition, unlicensed private driver education or training schools.

I was talking, of course, about the unlicensed commercial driving schools who are responsible for the problems raised in this thread. But that does raise a question I can't answer for all states: who exactly certifies what about a new driver? I don't think CDL trucking schools administer the CDL licensing tests or issue the license, I think states normally do that. Ditto for states.

It is absolutely common for the CDL trucking schools to administer the skills test. The examiner can't be the same person who trained the driver but it can be the same facility. Then the state issues the license based on the examiner's certification that the person passed the skills test.

It's a lot of work to prove that an examiner is passing unqualified drivers, but it can happen. When it happens, the drivers who received their licenses based on passing a test by that examiner have to re-take the skills test to keep their license.

Regardless, whoever certifies that a driver is competent and should be licensed and allowed to drive, commercial or otherwise, really should be held responsible for actually doing the required tests and accurately reporting the results. Even if it were a volunteer church-run program, any official certification the program makes should be accurate and truthful.

Yes, that is how it should work.

Now, what did happen regarding CDL training was that in 2022 the FMCSA started requiring formal Entry-Level Driver Training in order to obtain a CDL. However, at that time schools were allowed to self-certify that they met the FMCSA requirements. What is happening now, is that the FMCSA is investigating to see whether schools are actually meeting the FMCSA requirements, and are shutting down numerous schools that are not in compliance.

The fact is that despite your assertion that the government is doing less and less regulation, in this industry regulation and compliance monitoring is actually increasing.

[ken_sylvania]

I was talking, of course, about the unlicensed commercial driving schools who are responsible for the problems raised in this thread. But that does raise a question I can't answer for all states: who exactly certifies what about a new driver? I don't think CDL trucking schools administer the CDL licensing tests or issue the license, I think states normally do that. Ditto for normal driver's ed, I don't think schools or churches administer the written and driving tests, do they? I have taught people to drive, I am not certified to do so, I did not make official legally-binding claims about their ability to drive as a result. That's not a problem.

So if in fact the schools didn't administer the driving tests, why would you have a problem with unlicensed schools???

[JohnH]

The fact is that despite your assertion that the government is doing less and less regulation, in this industry regulation and compliance monitoring is actually increasing.

And yet, as this happens, the amount of accidents is also increasing.

[Bootstrap]

I was talking, of course, about the unlicensed commercial driving schools who are responsible for the problems raised in this thread. But that does raise a question I can't answer for all states: who exactly certifies what about a new driver? I don't think CDL trucking schools administer the CDL licensing tests or issue the license, I think states normally do that. Ditto for normal driver's ed, I don't think schools or churches administer the written and driving tests, do they? I have taught people to drive, I am not certified to do so, I did not make official legally-binding claims about their ability to drive as a result. That's not a problem.

So if in fact the schools didn't administer the driving tests, why would you have a problem with unlicensed schools???

The states are closing these schools down. I assume they have reasons for that. I don't know the details, but I assume that they are claiming to have done things that they have not done, and charged for what they did not do.

That's just a guess, though. I am learning about this through MN, not by having any particular background in this subject.

[temporal1]

As an aside about gov licensing (taxing) .. Illinois ..

Years ago we had a friend who had a ladies hair salon. She was near retirement.
One day she told us, when she began, she was licensed, the license fees were intended to pay for inspections, reviews, etc.,
and there were regular inspections, some routine, some unnannounced.

As time passed, fees increased, inspections decreased, she said she couldn’t remember their last state inspection.

But fees were not reduced, nor negotiable.

[Valerie]

I was talking, of course, about the unlicensed commercial driving schools who are responsible for the problems raised in this thread. But that does raise a question I can't answer for all states: who exactly certifies what about a new driver? I don't think CDL trucking schools administer the CDL licensing tests or issue the license, I think states normally do that. Ditto for normal driver's ed, I don't think schools or churches administer the written and driving tests, do they? I have taught people to drive, I am not certified to do so, I did not make official legally-binding claims about their ability to drive as a result. That's not a problem.

So if in fact the schools didn't administer the driving tests, why would you have a problem with unlicensed schools???

The states are closing these schools down. I assume they have reasons for that. I don't know the details, but I assume that they are claiming to have done things that they have not done, and charged for what they did not do.

That's just a guess, though. I am learning about this through MN, not by having any particular background in this subject.

It’s probably only being reported on certain media outlets. That’s usually the case.