Measels outbreak in Lancaster County

[Judas Maccabeus]

The line of thinking you're addressing would also seem to suggest that I or anyone else who is marked down for organ donation and/or post-mortem research had better do everything possible to not get murdered or maybe even negligent manslaughter, because any medical benefit accrued from my/our dead bodies, (is?) may be a mortal sin (minutely tracked and accounted for by an exacting perfect God!) - for anyone who ever benefits from the organ or research derived from the tragedy befalling my/our mortal body... Maybe I/we should immediately recuse ourselves from anything like this, in case we cause someone in the future to knowingly/unknowingly sin? in this way...
Maybe this is strawmanning, but I'm not sure how else to interpret the anti-vax reasoning some are using...

Jazman,

Are you really comparing someone who is an adult and makes a conscious, voluntary choice to donate their organs or body to science, who is then later murdered, to a helpless, tiny baby being murdered for the express purpose of using the tissue?

The WI09 was just that: a couple decided to do IVF, and made more embryos than they needed, with the express wish to "donate" the extra embryos to "science". A 5 to 7 day "excess" embryo was then slaughtered and its stem cells harvested.

Do you really think that's OK?

That is NOT the cell line used in the Rubella component of the vaccine. The one used for the vaccine is WI-38, which is a completely different cell line. That is not what is being discussed here. You are the one strawmannirg, if anyone is.

[Judas Maccabeus]

The "limit" may not be so much of a limit as is portrayed. Ever hear of HeLa cells? I worked with them in the late 70s. As of this time, they appear to be immortal and not subject to such limits. They have adapted to life in vitro and replicate furiously, without apparent limits. Now, if it can be determined how they do this, you have an answer.

BTW when my studies were over, it was a requirement that you destroy all remaining cells and sterilize your glassware. IF you follow the logic of some here, I am guilty of murder.

Hela cells were taken from cancerous tissue from an adult woman from a biopsy.

it simply is not "live baby tissue," full stop. You cannot kill someone multiple times. It is deliberately deceptive language.

Fetal stem cells most certainly are live tissue that is taken from an aborted baby. I mean, the cells are obviously live, and the baby was aborted.

What else would you call it?

But it is human tissue. I see no difference between one human tissue and another. Is that not the whole premise of the right to life movement?

In the same sense WI-38 cells are alive, HeLa cells are alive. You seem to be really selective in which life you value.

[JohnH]

That is NOT the cell line used in the Rubella component of the vaccine. The one used for the vaccine is WI-38, which is a completely different cell line. That is not what is being discussed here. You are the one strawmannirg, if anyone is.

There are lots of different stem cell lines used. I picked one whose provenance is well-documented.

Since you brought up the one for the rubella vaccine, though, let's discuss that.

The little baby who is nowadays crassly and coldly referred to as "WI-38" was murdered by her mother because her mother felt she already had enough children. She never got a name.

Do you think that is okay?

In the same sense WI-38 cells are alive, HeLa cells are alive. You seem to be really selective in which life you value.

Yes, I value an unborn baby much more highly than I do a biopsy from an adult. I should hope you can understand the difference between the two.

JM, to be honest, your equivocating about abortion really... concerns me. I'll just leave it at that. It is genuine concern. I hope you will take the time to speak to me privately about it sometime.

[Judas Maccabeus]

That is NOT the cell line used in the Rubella component of the vaccine. The one used for the vaccine is WI-38, which is a completely different cell line. That is not what is being discussed here. You are the one strawmannirg, if anyone is.

There are lots of different stem cell lines used. I picked one whose provenance is well-documented.

Since you brought up the one for the rubella vaccine, though, let's discuss that.

The little baby who is nowadays crassly and coldly referred to as "WI-38" was murdered by her mother because her mother felt she already had enough children. She never got a name.

Do you think that is okay?

In the same sense WI-38 cells are alive, HeLa cells are alive. You seem to be really selective in which life you value.

Yes, I value an unborn baby much more highly than I do a biopsy from an adult. I should hope you can understand the difference between the two.

JM, to be honest, your equivocating about abortion really... concerns me. I'll just leave it at that. It is genuine concern. I hope you will take the time to speak to me privately about it sometime.

No I don't. But what value is it to anyone if that tissue was incinerated? I don't approve of abortion, but I also don't approve of simply letting children die of preventable diseases when the result of this action will not stop a single abortion.

Antivaxism kills. We can't bring the WI-38 baby back, and it was not "killed" to produce a vaccine. You are willing to visit death on living children to accomplish exactly nothing. If you wish to stop abortion, bring people to Christ. That is where I will spend my effort.

[joshuabgood]

The "limit" may not be so much of a limit as is portrayed. Ever hear of HeLa cells? I worked with them in the late 70s. As of this time, they appear to be immortal and not subject to such limits. They have adapted to life in vitro and replicate furiously, without apparent limits. Now, if it can be determined how they do this, you have an answer.

BTW when my studies were over, it was a requirement that you destroy all remaining cells and sterilize your glassware. IF you follow the logic of some here, I am guilty of murder.

Hela cells were taken from cancerous tissue from an adult woman from a biopsy.

it simply is not "live baby tissue," full stop. You cannot kill someone multiple times. It is deliberately deceptive language.

Fetal stem cells most certainly are live tissue that is taken from an aborted baby. I mean, the cells are obviously live, and the baby was aborted.

What else would you call it?

The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks is worth reading. She was a black woman who was misused by the medical community...with regard to consent and racial practices in medecine, from her body came Hela. Short of Henrietta Lacks. I read it about 15 years ago.

[JohnH]

No I don't. But what value is it to anyone if that tissue was incinerated? I don't approve of abortion, but I also don't approve of simply letting children die of preventable diseases when the result of this action will not stop a single abortion.

You don't see a problem at all with using live tissue from aborted babies?

What might be one of the long term effects of using this, particularly when a stem cell line hits its end (they are not immortal lines; Hela cells are unique being, after all, cancer cells).

Antivaxism kills. We can't bring the WI-38 baby back, and it was not "killed" to produce a vaccine. You are willing to visit death on living children to accomplish exactly nothing. If you wish to stop abortion, bring people to Christ. That is where I will spend my effort.

Are you sure about that? The W09 type cell lines were babies created expressly for the purpose of killing them in order to get even more stem cell lines. Now this is quite widespread, and lots of different stem cell lines are used in creating vaccines theses days.

Abortion kills, and I don't really want to be part of using byproducts from aborted babies under the guise of "well, it's OK to do this because it saves other human lives". I think you could at least show an ounce of respect for those of us who hold that position with regard to abortion.

[Soloist]

The "limit" may not be so much of a limit as is portrayed. Ever hear of HeLa cells? I worked with them in the late 70s. As of this time, they appear to be immortal and not subject to such limits. They have adapted to life in vitro and replicate furiously, without apparent limits. Now, if it can be determined how they do this, you have an answer.

BTW when my studies were over, it was a requirement that you destroy all remaining cells and sterilize your glassware. IF you follow the logic of some here, I am guilty of murder.

Cancer and virus can immortalize cell lines but generally are viewed as suspicious for vaccine use. If you think my position is bad, imagine growing the virus on cancer cells and convincing skeptics it was safe…
This doesn’t change the Hayflick limit as it’s not the same thing.
There are multiple adult cell lines immortalized this way and they are used mostly for testing.

As for you being guilty of murder, the murder was done already but the same logic as joining hands with elected officials applies.

[Soloist]

I did some digging on importing the vaccine, apparently the FDA is flat out refusing and has been for some time. Currently the only way is flying to Japan.

[ohio jones]

I did some digging on importing the vaccine, apparently the FDA is flat out refusing and has been for some time. Currently the only way is flying to Japan.

There have been some decent sales in the last few days; under $800 round trip is pretty good historically. And the yen is weaker against the dollar than it has been for 30 years.

[Soloist]

I did some digging on importing the vaccine, apparently the FDA is flat out refusing and has been for some time. Currently the only way is flying to Japan.

There have been some decent sales in the last few days; under $800 round trip is pretty good historically. And the yen is weaker against the dollar than it has been for 30 years.

I’m not rich and I think it’s 3 flights I’d need for a family of 5 children.