Measels outbreak in Lancaster County

[Soloist]

Thanks for the resources. I certainly didn’t intend to be misleading. How far removed would it need to be acceptable? I would understand that the cell lines are thousands of cell generations removed from the original fetus?

I think you need to read up on the hayflick limit.
Roughly speaking, with some mild variation each cell is capable of replicating 52 times.
1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 - 256 - 512 and so on.
Now, I’m sure you can see that wouldn’t actually amount to enough for vaccine production.
What they did was they took about a gram of cells and replicated them to the 16th generation I believe. Then they split it into multiple vials.
This information is specific for the WI-38 and I can look it up and find the sourcing documents if you need it.
So I’m not positive how they did it with the other cell lines, but probably something similar.
The international health organization was very concerned about the supplier of MRC 5 and WI-38 and had published a document containing the information about what remained available. China has documented the reasoning behind creating two cell lines to replace these two, The US has also replaced them, although not started using the new cell lines.

Bottom line they are not thousands of generations removed. The maximum replication is actually very similar to how we have a finite lifespan as well.
For vaccine production, you want under 40 generations.

So let’s say, hypothetically, that the cell would last forever and we’d never need a new line. I still would object, but my stance would be pretty weak to convince anyone else. As it is, replacement cell lines have been made and medicine almost across-the-board is adopting fetal cell testing or manufacturing in some fashion.

[Soloist]

, no actual cells, many medications are tested on the cell lines, I don’t know that it’s possible to avoid those medications unless you decline all medications ever.

This is a flawed argument. I was actually involved in writing the rebuttal to it that the organization I referenced published. They didn’t credit me, I did all the research they needed to write it.
Basically, if you create a medicine and get it approved and start selling it in 20 years later, tested on fetal cells it doesn’t affect the morality of the current product.
Versus designing a medicine testing on fetal cells getting it approved based off of that research and then selling it.

Does that illustrate where I stand?
So on a loose standard pre-1980 medicine is okay. That’s not true across-the-board but sometimes you don’t have time to spend exhaustive minutes searching medication.
And equally post 1980 it’s not always tested or produced.

[AnthonyMartin]

I think you need to read up on the hayflick limit.
Roughly speaking, with some mild variation each cell is capable of replicating 52 times.
1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 - 256 - 512 and so on.
Now, I’m sure you can see that wouldn’t actually amount to enough for vaccine production.
What they did was they took about a gram of cells and replicated them to the 16th generation I believe. Then they split it into multiple vials.
This information is specific for the WI-38 and I can look it up and find the sourcing documents if you need it.
So I’m not positive how they did it with the other cell lines, but probably something similar.
The international health organization was very concerned about the supplier of MRC 5 and WI-38 and had published a document containing the information about what remained available. China has documented the reasoning behind creating two cell lines to replace these two, The US has also replaced them, although not started using the new cell lines.

Bottom line they are not thousands of generations removed. The maximum replication is actually very similar to how we have a finite lifespan as well.
For vaccine production, you want under 40 generations.

So let’s say, hypothetically, that the cell would last forever and we’d never need a new line. I still would object, but my stance would be pretty weak to convince anyone else. As it is, replacement cell lines have been made and medicine almost across-the-board is adopting fetal cell testing or manufacturing in some fashion.

Here was my source for “thousands”

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-a ... etal-cells

“ Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus. ”

[Soloist]

Here was my source for “thousands”

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-a ... etal-cells

“ Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus. ”

Yes. That’s factually wrong.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/hayflick-limit

[Judas Maccabeus]

Which common vaccines contain these? I’m certainly open to correction.

I didn’t say it contained. I said it’s on the ingredient list. You and I both know the virus burst the cell none of the cells actually are in vaccines.
https://vaccine.guide/wp-content/uploa ... ummary.pdf
For your reading. Some of this isn’t actually up-to-date anymore and you have to look at the actual FDA approval documents.
As I said, though, you’re welcome to look at my past posts.

Thanks for the resources. I certainly didn’t intend to be misleading. How far removed would it need to be acceptable? I would understand that the cell lines are thousands of cell generations removed from the original fetus. And as you said, no actual cells, many medications are tested on the cell lines, I don’t know that it’s possible to avoid those medications unless you decline all medications ever.

The cell line in question is from a 1962 abortion. This was done for reasons other than making a cell line, and had the tissue not been sent to a researcher, it would have been incinerated. Nobody knew that a human cell line could be developed in that way.

Some here think rejection of vaccines will stop abortions. It will not, if anything it will cause more abortions, due to the possibility of maternal infection, as we have recently seen.

This simplistic "everything is either black or white" thinking may be comforting to some, but to us who may someday be called to comfort a couple who has had a child that dies, or a miscarriage caused by this, it isn't. I am thankful that has never happened in my circles, and pray that it does not.

[Judas Maccabeus]

Here was my source for “thousands”

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-a ... etal-cells

“ Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus. ”

Yes. That’s factually wrong.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/hayflick-limit

That is a theory. The Hayflick limit is not a fact, and remains VERY controversial.

[Soloist]

The cell line in question is from a 1962 abortion. This was done for reasons other than making a cell line, and had the tissue not been sent to a researcher, it would have been incinerated. Nobody knew that a human cell line could be developed in that way.

Some here think rejection of vaccines will stop abortions. It will not, if anything it will cause more abortions, due to the possibility of maternal infection, as we have recently seen.

This simplistic "everything is either black or white" thinking may be comforting to some, but to us who may someday be called to comfort a couple who has had a child that dies, or a miscarriage caused by this, it isn't. I am thankful that has never happened in my circles, and pray that it does not.

Well I think you misunderstand my position.
We are not to use evil. I’m not seeking to stop abortion necessarily, I’m seeking to avoid being part of it.

[Soloist]

That is a theory. The Hayflick limit is not a fact, and remains VERY controversial.

Roll eyes

Fine, a theory that has not been proven wrong to date.

[JohnH]

Why can’t vaccines be developed using stem cells be developed from non abortion sources?

- couples who have a miscarriage, stillborn, or infant car accident and want to donate the body to science, or even a mother who has a car accident and the baby is going to be lost.
- adult sourced stem cells
- stem cells from non-human animals
- new technology at the forefront like using AI to recreate cells.

It just seems there must be another way.

I can get a tdap vaccine that doesn’t involve stem cells. All my childhood vaccinations were stem cell free. (I had a childhood mumps-measles vaccine, single dose, they didn’t bother with rubella for boys back then.)

[AnthonyMartin]

Here was my source for “thousands”

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-a ... etal-cells

“ Current fetal cell lines are thousands of generations removed from the original fetal tissue. They do not contain any tissue from a fetus. ”

Yes. That’s factually wrong.
https://embryo.asu.edu/pages/hayflick-limit

That is a theory. The Hayflick limit is not a fact, and remains VERY controversial.

I believe Hayflick is accepted by most as accurate science. I’d enjoy reading the controversy. I thought the “generations” and specific divisions were different, I appear wrong and misunderstood what I read. I am not an epidemiologist.