Clothing and Lust

[Soloist]

Thank you for admitting in that last paragraph that girls/women are sexualized regularly in the church.

Earlier in this conversation, someone didn’t like that I put Hollywood and conservative Christian culture in the same box.

I did not admit that. I don't appreciate when people try the "gotcha thing" and put words in other people's mouths. I think there are some forum rules about this.

That aside, I was referring to people who grew up in a non-Christian culture, who were taken advantage of in a non-Christian culture, and learned the hard way. They have expressed that they wished they would have had someone teach them about the effect their lack of clothing had on people around them.

I apologize for assuming you were talking about all women.

May I express the other side?

I grew up in the very circles that promote this idea that modesty helps men not lust, and I wish that modesty and lust had been too separate conversations.

It left me with extreme anxiety, rape, and self hatred.

I would like to see something different for future generations of Anabaptist girls.

Wife: That sounds horrible. I’m not going to say I have never heard that argument, but I have heard people say that men have no excuse for sin or abuse. There are a couple of churches that I know that would have a warped culture (blaming women and discouraging reporting) that I would want to avoid, but I just wanted to say that it’s not all of them. The one I’m specifically thinking of would explicitly not have called themselves Mennonite, although I’m sure there are some of those out there, too.

In no way do I want to justify what happened to you or to other woman in that situation. It is extremely sad when abuse or cover up happens. I just wanted to say that not all guys that promote modesty are predators or defending predators.

[GaryK]

May I express the other side?

I grew up in the very circles that promote this idea that modesty helps men not lust, and I wish that modesty and lust had been too separate conversations.

It left me with extreme anxiety, rape, and self hatred.

I would like to see something different for future generations of Anabaptist girls.

What would that "something different" look like for those future generations of Anabaptist girls?

[anndet92]

May I express the other side?

I grew up in the very circles that promote this idea that modesty helps men not lust, and I wish that modesty and lust had been too separate conversations.

It left me with extreme anxiety, rape, and self hatred.

I would like to see something different for future generations of Anabaptist girls.

What would that "something different" look like for those future generations of Anabaptist girls?

I mean, I’m pretty sure we all would like to see no more abuse and rape and sexualization of women and girls.

We all agree on that.

But we disagree on what might be contributing to it.

I’m not completely against modesty; however, how it is taught in conservative fundamentalist Christian circles is not helping to protect women and children.

You can teach modesty without tying it to lust.
Instead of teaching girls to look in the mirror and ask “is this going to make my brother stumble” teach them to dress appropriately for whatever activity they’re doing. Ask “is this appropriate”.

Teach men and boys (and women - because lust isn’t just a male problem) that they are responsible for their actions. You can notice beauty without lusting. Side note: physical arousal is synonymous with lust.

Teach that attraction and lust are not the same, instead of framing normal physical reactions as inherently negative/evil.

In Mennonite settings I am familiar with, consent was not talked about at all. Consent needs to be both taught and respected.

And finally, when abuse happens, believe the victim and stop making excuses for the perp - no matter how good of a “Christian” he/she is.

This is not an exhaustive list.

[anndet92]

It is extremely confusing for girls when we are told that God made our bodies good, but simultaneously told that are bodies are tempting to men.

Girls can be taught that God made their bodies good, also they can be taught the biology, hormonal responses, and hardwired neurological systems of men's brains, without denigrating their bodies.

I’m not convinced that men are inherently more likely to not be able to control themselves.

I think that idea is degrading to men.

Telling boys and men that they can’t help how they are wired is setting them up for failure from the get-go.

Lust is human problem, not a male one. Women seem to be a bit better at controlling themselves, although I hate making broad generalizations like that.

Either way, we are all (men and women) very capable of not behaving in a way that is lustful.

[anndet92]

But don’t be surprised when the girls/boys are raped by church members, and eventually walk away from church and God.

I find saying that Ernie’s way of thinking will bring on adult church members raping children a very extreme and disturbing comment.

It is disturbing, for sure.

A quick google search shows that hyper-modest cultures tend to have high rates of sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc.

[Ernie]

teach them to dress appropriately for whatever activity they’re doing. Ask “is this appropriate”.

What does this look like to you?

[Ernie]

I apologize for assuming you were talking about all women.

Apology accepted.

[Ernie]

Lust is human problem, not a male one. Women seem to be a bit better at controlling themselves, although I hate making broad generalizations like that.

Lust is hankering after things God doesn't want us to have or doesn't want us to pursue. There can be lust for food, power, attention, money, arousal, and many other things. I think women who aren't tempted by bodies are likely tempted in other ways.

Temptation is common to man. (and women)

[Grace]

It is extremely confusing for girls when we are told that God made our bodies good, but simultaneously told that are bodies are tempting to men.

Girls can be taught that God made their bodies good, also they can be taught the biology, hormonal responses, and hardwired neurological systems of men's brains, without denigrating their bodies.

I’m not convinced that men are inherently more likely to not be able to control themselves.

I think that idea is degrading to men.

Telling boys and men that they can’t help how they are wired is setting them up for failure from the get-go.

Lust is human problem, not a male one. Women seem to be a bit better at controlling themselves, although I hate making broad generalizations like that.

Either way, we are all (men and women) very capable of not behaving in a way that is lustful.

When I talked about biology, hormonal responses, and hardwired neurological systems of men's brains, I didn't say they are not able to control themselves. They definitely can. Please don't put words in my mouth.

However, there is overwhelming scientific evidence that the biology and the brains of men are different than women. And it starts in utero.

[anndet92]

teach them to dress appropriately for whatever activity they’re doing. Ask “is this appropriate”.

What does this look like to you?

It will look different for different people.

For example: active activities require more than a skirt, in my opinion. Some things really shouldn’t be done in skirts.

For me, Cape dresses in Walmart/town had me really uncomfortable because of how I was looked at. It felt like I was being undressed by men. Tank tops/tshirts and leggings don’t make me stand out as much, which is contrary to what I was taught about modesty protecting you.

I would never wear active wear to my office job, for example. Neither would I show up at Walmart in swimwear.

I know of other women who feel comfortable and safe in Mennonite clothing. They don’t have the feelings of anxiety attached to Mennonite garb the way I do.

That’s fine. I have no problem with Mennonite specific clothing, as long as it’s not something that we are propping up as a “protection”.