Clothing and Lust

[JohnH]

This might be getting a little off track - but I’d appreciate a definition of lust here.

Noticing beauty or bodies is not the same as lust, in my opinion.

Bodies are not evil. God created our bodies and called us “very good.”

I agree.

However, some clothing is inspired to incite lust in others. If I wear a scanty leather outfit that exposes a lot of parts of the body that should be covered and go to the Folsom Street Fair, I think it would be reasonable to say my motivation were to incite lust in others.

What Anabaptist people seem to ignore is that there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women. Mennonite dresses are a kink for some.

Yes, it is impossible to control other people's lust. It does matter if one has a desire to incite it in others. (Lots of young women these days are probably wearing attire that was designed to incite lust, but out of ignorance, are not aware they are wearing such ltohing.)

It’s a slap in the face to Anabaptist victims of abuse when we hear stories about evil men supposedly not raping someone because they had a cape dress on when so many of us were raped wearing the “right clothes”.

Yes, I would agree that that shouldn't be said.

I'm still going to stand by my position that it does not befit a Christian life to wear full leather gear and then claim ignorance.

[Grace]

Again, lust cannot be controlled with certain clothing. Lust comes from WITHIN a person and has nothing to do with clothing.

That is true. Lust comes from within a person and it is no one else's fault, just the person who has the lustful heart. Even though we cannot control the lust in another person, why would anyone dress in such a manner that incites that lust?

What Anabaptist people seem to ignore is that there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women. Mennonite dresses are a kink for some.

What is this suggesting? That Mennonite women should not dress like Mennonite's because there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women and their dress? You just said that lust cannot be controlled by certain clothing and that it comes from within. Does that include Mennonite clothing as well?

[R7ehr]

Some would make the point that "concealing the body" isn't fundamentally about avoiding wrongful sexual thoughts/actions. One might easily consider people who could be completely nude and wouldn't be in any danger of being "lusted after." However, nudity, even in that context isn't appropriate. Further, biblical data supports the idea that nudity is shameful, in its own right - disconnected from "lust." And in other cases nudity is appropriate...ie medical contexts, etc.

That is an important distinction that perhaps keeps conversations about appropriate clothing from becoming hypersexualized. Sexual pervesions perhaps should be dealt with in their own place apart from a clothing conversation.

I agree.

[anndet92]

Again, lust cannot be controlled with certain clothing. Lust comes from WITHIN a person and has nothing to do with clothing.

That is true. Lust comes from within a person and it is no one else's fault, just the person who has the lustful heart. Even though we cannot control the lust in another person, why would anyone dress in such a manner that incites that lust?

What Anabaptist people seem to ignore is that there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women. Mennonite dresses are a kink for some.

What is this suggesting? That Mennonite women should not dress like Mennonite's because there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women and their dress? You just said that lust cannot be controlled by certain clothing and that it comes from within. Does that include Mennonite clothing as well?

I think you should dress whatever you are comfortable in, Mennonite or not. But understand that no matter what you wear, you cannot control another’s mind.

[anndet92]

This might be getting a little off track - but I’d appreciate a definition of lust here.

Noticing beauty or bodies is not the same as lust, in my opinion.

Bodies are not evil. God created our bodies and called us “very good.”

I agree.

However, some clothing is inspired to incite lust in others. If I wear a scanty leather outfit that exposes a lot of parts of the body that should be covered and go to the Folsom Street Fair, I think it would be reasonable to say my motivation were to incite lust in others.

What Anabaptist people seem to ignore is that there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women. Mennonite dresses are a kink for some.

Yes, it is impossible to control other people's lust. It does matter if one has a desire to incite it in others. (Lots of young women these days are probably wearing attire that was designed to incite lust, but out of ignorance, are not aware they are wearing such ltohing.)

It’s a slap in the face to Anabaptist victims of abuse when we hear stories about evil men supposedly not raping someone because they had a cape dress on when so many of us were raped wearing the “right clothes”.

Yes, I would agree that that shouldn't be said.

I'm still going to stand by my position that it does not befit a Christian life to wear full leather gear and then claim ignorance.

I agree that there are appropriate and inappropriate places to wear certain things.

For example: swimsuits should be kept for the beach and pools - not Walmart.

Lingerie should be worn in bedrooms, etc.

What I’m not okay with, is the over sexualization I see coming from both conservative Christians and Hollywood in regards to bodies.

Wear things you’re comfortable in, whatever that looks like for you. Be careful to not assign motives to everyone else.

[R7ehr]

What I’m not okay with, is the over sexualization I see coming from both conservative Christians and Hollywood in regards to bodies.

I still have objection with this framing. Because there is a major difference between the design and intent behind Mennonite women's clothing, and Hollywood/fashion/western clothing. One is intended to cover and hide the body in a simple way, the other is to enhance and accentuate the appearance. One requires the pervert to perv in spite of the clothing, the other requires the pure use effort to stay pure in thought because of the clothing.
The fact that the Mennonite clothes don't stop the perv, and the pure can stay pure in spite of the half-nakedness, does not mean that clothes are of no importance and they are all the same. They aren't all the same. Seems everyone except ex-Mennonites easily understand this.

[anndet92]

What I’m not okay with, is the over sexualization I see coming from both conservative Christians and Hollywood in regards to bodies.

I still have objection with this framing. Because there is a major difference between the design and intent behind Mennonite women's clothing, and Hollywood/fashion/western clothing. One is intended to cover and hide the body in a simple way, the other is to enhance and accentuate the appearance. One requires the pervert to perv in spite of the clothing, the other requires the pure use effort to stay pure in thought because of the clothing.
The fact that the Mennonite clothes don't stop the perv, and the pure can stay pure in spite of the half-nakedness, does not mean that clothes are of no importance and they are all the same. They aren't all the same. Seems everyone except ex-Mennonites easily understand this.

Well thanks for the jab, there! lol (ex menno here)

Personally, the way modesty was taught to me was entirely based on “keeping my brothers in Christ pure” and I reject that with all my heart.

I cannot explain the anxiety I had surrounding clothing as a Mennonite girl. I was terrified of making a man lust, yet I was raped by Mennonite men.

Please, please, please stop using the purity language with modesty. It is gross and off-putting. It is low key rape culture.
Not even Jesus put immodesty and lust together.

You can teach modesty without making it about purity.

[barnhart]

Personally, the way modesty was taught to me was entirely based on “keeping my brothers in Christ pure” and I reject that with all my heart...

Please, please, please stop using the purity language with modesty. It is gross and off-putting. Not even Jesus put modesty and lust together.

I agree. We should stop using that framing.

[GaryK]

Personally, the way modesty was taught to me was entirely based on “keeping my brothers in Christ pure” and I reject that with all my heart.

Was this "keeping my brothers in Christ pure" teaching done across the pulpit?

[anndet92]

I know a lot of Anabaptists would prefer to not be placed in the “over sexualization” category alongside Hollywood.

But from where I sit, when we are teaching little girls to cover up a certain way in order to help their “brothers”, we are sexualizing them.

Boys don’t get this same treatment; which says a lot.