Clothing and Lust

[Judas Maccabeus]

Her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks. Her FB posts about this issue came from an article a conservative Anabaptist Man wrote about protecting the modesty of women and a certain phrase he used concerning that matter. Those Anabaptist men deserve to be poked fun at, joked about and denigrated. Her and her followers feel that if women should be required to wear skirts/dresses, so should the men! I would post some of the comments and photos she allowed and responded to, but I am not sure they would be allowed here.

On a side note, now I will await the condemnation of those who feel Trudy should ALWAYS be venerated and is sacrosanct. Her work to expose abuse is important, but engaging in this type of stupidness is another tactic that is very revealing and is counterproductive to her work.

And leads those who are honest to the conclusion that she will not rest until plain Anabaptist culture is exterminated. What her father did is reprehensible, but there seems to be projection of that on all men. This simply lacks credibility.

Or, maybe she is making the point that it is inconsistent for Anabaptists to be against women wearing slacks while there is serious evidence of sexual abuse, misconduct, and rape perpetrated by the very people who adhere to a very high standard of “modest.

I understand why some people feel like Trudy and others are out to annihilate Anabaptist culture. Asking hard questions and pointing out inconsistencies should be an opportunity for Anabaptists to become more safe. However, it’s probably not going to feel good for those who are die-hard, “our-church-is-great-like-it-is” kind of folks.

I know the rude awakening I got. It broke me.

I extend grace to you, and I pray that God gives you wisdom.

I call it an attempt at cultural genocide. What do you think would happen if the same thing was said about Orthodox Jews?

[Judas Maccabeus]

[
Or, maybe she is making the point that it is inconsistent for Anabaptists to be against women wearing slacks while there is serious evidence of sexual abuse, misconduct, and rape perpetrated by the very people who adhere to a very high standard of “modest.

I understand why some people feel like Trudy and others are out to annihilate Anabaptist culture. Asking hard questions and pointing out inconsistencies should be an opportunity for Anabaptists to become more safe. However, it’s probably not going to feel good for those who are die-hard, “our-church-is-great-like-it-is” kind of folks.

I know the rude awakening I got. It broke me.

I extend grace to you, and I pray that God gives you wisdom.

Few like inconsistency, myself quite included. And yet to see this false dichotomy proffered as if it were of some helpful utility, did remind me of the Ralph Waldo Emerson quote “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

Modest appearel is not in conflict with a pure culture or people.

No...but a hyper sexualized culture is.

Been on the streets of my fair city lately?

[Grace]

One could well accuse me of the same thing. Trudy also has an axe to grind with non-conservative Anabaptist men (like Steve Stutzman), conservative women, and non conservative women who seemingly find endless problems with victims speaking up, advocates speaking up, but mysteriously never want to hold abusers themselves accountable.

Her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks.

I think you're misinterpreting that. I would say that her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks and give poor reasons for it, and whose lives do not show respect for women.

How does she know the men who feel women shouldn't wear slacks, show no respect for women?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks.

I think you're misinterpreting that. I would say that her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks and give poor reasons for it, and whose lives do not show respect for women.

How does she know the men who feel women shouldn't wear slacks, show no respect for women?

I mean, not all of us can explain issues to the satisfaction of who?

[ohio jones]

Her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks.

I think you're misinterpreting that. I would say that her latest axe to grind is against Anabaptist men who think women should refrain from wearing slacks and give poor reasons for it, and whose lives do not show respect for women.

How does she know the men who feel women shouldn't wear slacks, show no respect for women?

Again, it's not about all men who feel women shouldn't wear slacks, it's those who give spurious reasons for that position.

There are of course legitimate reasons for wearing skirts/dresses rather than slacks. The one she mentioned, at least when phrased that way, is not one of them and invites derision.

[Ernie]

Few like inconsistency, myself quite included. And yet to see this false dichotomy proffered as if it were of some helpful utility, did remind me of the Ralph Waldo Emerson quote “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

Modest appearel is not in conflict with a pure culture or people.

No...but a hyper sexualized culture is.

Hyper sexualized culture huh? Compared with what? Compared with mainstream American culture?
Still a false dichotomy.

I agree that the inconsistences mentioned already are indeed problems in some communities.
Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is just as likely today as it was 2000 years ago and I have seen plenty of this in Anabaptist communities.
Christian communities do themselves no favors by ignoring inconsistencies.
When there are inconsistences, what often happens is that people start justifying ungodly behaviors based on the inconsistences, rather than address the issues that created the inconsistencies in the first place. Those committing the inconsistencies start justifying themselves and those who react to the inconsistencies often develop different inconsistencies that are just as problematic or worse.

I think…
-A Christian culture should promote wearing clothes that cover the body, clothes that help conceal bodily forms, and clothes that nurture the two distinct God-given genders, as practical expressions of scriptural principles.
-A case can be made for why such clothing can help some people’s minds focus on the person rather than a person’s body. (I’ve heard testimonials of this from a wide variety of people.)
-Wearing concealing clothing rather than revealing clothing is sometimes a deterrent against evil people making advances against a person. (again there are testimonials about this.)
And that it is possible to promote these things without being hyper-sexualized.

This does not mean…
-that wearing concealing clothing will make an impure person pure
-that if a person is wearing concealing clothing lustful minds will now focus on the person rather than on the body.
-that wearing concealing clothing will always be a deterrent against evil people making advances.
-that people promoting concealing clothing are free from hyper-sexualization.

[joshuabgood]

Some would make the point that "concealing the body" isn't fundamentally about avoiding wrongful sexual thoughts/actions. One might easily consider people who could be completely nude and wouldn't be in any danger of being "lusted after." However, nudity, even in that context isn't appropriate. Further, biblical data supports the idea that nudity is shameful, in its own right - disconnected from "lust." And in other cases nudity is appropriate...ie medical contexts, etc.

That is an important distinction that perhaps keeps conversations about appropriate clothing from becoming hypersexualized. Sexual pervesions perhaps should be dealt with in their own place apart from a clothing conversation.

[JohnH]

Some would make the point that "concealing the body" isn't fundamentally about avoiding wrongful sexual thoughts/actions. One might easily consider people who could be completely nude and wouldn't be in any danger of being "lusted after." However, nudity, even in that context isn't appropriate. Further, biblical data supports the idea that nudity is shameful, in its own right - disconnected from "lust." And in other cases nudity is appropriate...ie medical contexts, etc.

That is an important distinction that perhaps keeps conversations about appropriate clothing from becoming hypersexualized. Sexual pervesions perhaps should be dealt with in their own place apart from a clothing conversation.

The elephant in the room does need to be addressed that much of modern fashion is designed (and often chosen by the wearer) in order to incite lust in others. The designer and the wearer are the one doing the hypersexualising in that case. And it is entirely appropriate to call that out as something the Christian must avoid.

There may be some Christians who end up wearing such attire out of ignorance.

[joshuabgood]

Some would make the point that "concealing the body" isn't fundamentally about avoiding wrongful sexual thoughts/actions. One might easily consider people who could be completely nude and wouldn't be in any danger of being "lusted after." However, nudity, even in that context isn't appropriate. Further, biblical data supports the idea that nudity is shameful, in its own right - disconnected from "lust." And in other cases nudity is appropriate...ie medical contexts, etc.

That is an important distinction that perhaps keeps conversations about appropriate clothing from becoming hypersexualized. Sexual pervesions perhaps should be dealt with in their own place apart from a clothing conversation.

The elephant in the room does need to be addressed that much of modern fashion is designed (and often chosen by the wearer) in order to incite lust in others. The designer and the wearer are the one doing the hypersexualising in that case. And it is entirely appropriate to call that out as something the Christian must avoid.

There may be some Christians who end up wearing such attire out of ignorance.

Yes. I agree...American secular culture is hypersexualized.

[anndet92]

Some would make the point that "concealing the body" isn't fundamentally about avoiding wrongful sexual thoughts/actions. One might easily consider people who could be completely nude and wouldn't be in any danger of being "lusted after." However, nudity, even in that context isn't appropriate. Further, biblical data supports the idea that nudity is shameful, in its own right - disconnected from "lust." And in other cases nudity is appropriate...ie medical contexts, etc.

That is an important distinction that perhaps keeps conversations about appropriate clothing from becoming hypersexualized. Sexual pervesions perhaps should be dealt with in their own place apart from a clothing conversation.

The elephant in the room does need to be addressed that much of modern fashion is designed (and often chosen by the wearer) in order to incite lust in others. The designer and the wearer are the one doing the hypersexualising in that case. And it is entirely appropriate to call that out as something the Christian must avoid.

There may be some Christians who end up wearing such attire out of ignorance.

This might be getting a little off track - but I’d appreciate a definition of lust here.

Noticing beauty or bodies is not the same as lust, in my opinion.

Bodies are not evil. God created our bodies and called us “very good.”

Lust is all-consuming. Lust is possessive. Lust does anything it can to get what it wants.

That’s different than noticing a beautiful body or a handsome face.

What Anabaptist people seem to ignore is that there are men who fantasize about Mennonite women. Mennonite dresses are a kink for some.

Again, lust cannot be controlled with certain clothing. Lust comes from WITHIN a person and has nothing to do with clothing.

It’s a slap in the face to Anabaptist victims of abuse when we hear stories about evil men supposedly not raping someone because they had a cape dress on when so many of us were raped wearing the “right clothes”.