Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[AnthonyMartin]

Steve has not been convicted of a crime; however, he has repeatedly surrounded himself with men who have committed sexual crimes, and has repeatedly defended those men.

He does not see anything wrong with grown men holding young women while counseling them.

He does not see anything wrong with having young men pay money for everytime they “fall” into sexual sin.

For what it's worth, the payment method is not how Alcoholics Anonymous or any reputable 12-step program, including Celebrate Recovery, approaches addiction, contrary to Steve's claim in his now deleted post. Anyone who has worked extensively with addictions and anyone who has had them would certainly provide that information.

[JohnH]

For what it's worth, the payment method is not how Alcoholics Anonymous or any reputable 12-step program, including Celebrate Recovery, approaches addiction, contrary to Steve's claim in his now deleted post. Anyone who has worked extensively with addictions and anyone who has had them would certainly provide that information.

No kidding. The average alcoholic would gladly pay $10 or $1,000 to get "permission" to go drink.

It's unbelievable how Stutzman just gets away with this kind of thing, over and over.

[AnthonyMartin]

For what it's worth, the payment method is not how Alcoholics Anonymous or any reputable 12-step program, including Celebrate Recovery, approaches addiction, contrary to Steve's claim in his now deleted post. Anyone who has worked extensively with addictions and anyone who has had them would certainly provide that information.

No kidding. The average alcoholic would gladly pay $10 or $1,000 to get "permission" to go drink.

It's unbelievable how Stutzman just gets away with this kind of thing, over and over.

Not to bunny trail this, but the true alcoholics use when they don’t want to. They are not glad about a drink. If they relapsed they would be willing to pay that and more for more, but they would hate themselves for doing it. Gladness disappears pretty quickly.

[JohnH]

Not to bunny trail this, but the true alcoholics use when they don’t want to. They are not glad about a drink. If they relapsed they would be willing to pay that and more for more, but they would hate themselves for doing it. Gladness disappears pretty quickly.

Yeah. I don't think Stutzman/Miller's victims were happy about paying $1,000 either. But they obviously had a rather strong compulsion, since the one young man gave $1,000 somewhere around 5 to 7 times.

[AnthonyMartin]

Not to bunny trail this, but the true alcoholics use when they don’t want to. They are not glad about a drink. If they relapsed they would be willing to pay that and more for more, but they would hate themselves for doing it. Gladness disappears pretty quickly.

Yeah. I don't think Stutzman/Miller's victims were happy about paying $1,000 either. But they obviously had a rather strong compulsion, since the one young man gave $1,000 somewhere around 5 to 7 times.

It was abuse pure and simple, I see no way around it. I applaud Marcus Gehman.

[anndet92]

Steve has not been convicted of a crime; however, he has repeatedly surrounded himself with men who have committed sexual crimes, and has repeatedly defended those men.

He does not see anything wrong with grown men holding young women while counseling them.

He does not see anything wrong with having young men pay money for everytime they “fall” into sexual sin.

For what it's worth, the payment method is not how Alcoholics Anonymous or any reputable 12-step program, including Celebrate Recovery, approaches addiction, contrary to Steve's claim in his now deleted post. Anyone who has worked extensively with addictions and anyone who has had them would certainly provide that information.

He has a cult like following in which people believe whatever he says - even when the evidence says otherwise. He can do no wrong in their eyes.

[Grace]

Steve has not been convicted of a crime; however, he has repeatedly surrounded himself with men who have committed sexual crimes, and has repeatedly defended those men.

He does not see anything wrong with grown men holding young women while counseling them.

He does not see anything wrong with having young men pay money for everytime they “fall” into sexual sin.

For what it's worth, the payment method is not how Alcoholics Anonymous or any reputable 12-step program, including Celebrate Recovery, approaches addiction, contrary to Steve's claim in his now deleted post. Anyone who has worked extensively with addictions and anyone who has had them would certainly provide that information.

He has a cult like following in which people believe whatever he says - even when the evidence says otherwise. He can do no wrong in their eyes.

Same could be said about Trudy. Just saying.

[anndet92]

For what it's worth, the payment method is not how Alcoholics Anonymous or any reputable 12-step program, including Celebrate Recovery, approaches addiction, contrary to Steve's claim in his now deleted post. Anyone who has worked extensively with addictions and anyone who has had them would certainly provide that information.

He has a cult like following in which people believe whatever he says - even when the evidence says otherwise. He can do no wrong in their eyes.

Same could be said about Trudy. Just saying.

There’s two differences that I see:

1. Trudy has evidence to back up her claims, unlike Stutzman

2. Trudy is quick to admit when she gets it wrong, unlike Stutzman.

[JohnH]

[
Same could be said about Trudy. Just saying.

There’s two differences that I see:

1. Trudy has evidence to back up her claims, unlike Stutzman

2. Trudy is quick to admit when she gets it wrong, unlike Stutzman.

3. Trudy does not have a long and detailed history of financial shenanigans of her personally profiting from men who fall into moral sins.

4. Trudy has not elevated herself as a counsellor, elder, or preacher who exercises spiritual authority over congregants.

[barnhart]

I've never seen Trudy sympathetic to demonology to explain sin.