Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[Thomas_muntzer]

It is the eternal debate of justice: what is worse, letting a guilty person go free or condemning an innocent one?

God was willing that an innocent man be condemned so that the guilty could go free.

He wasn't just a man; he was the Son of God, the Word made flesh. This is a different case altogether.

In our actions, we must always seek the truth, as our teacher Jesus Christ commands. Damaging the reputation of an innocent person is just as serious as covering up for an abuser. We must pray that God and the Holy Spirit will enlighten us so that we may all know the true facts regarding Trudy Metzger's allegations

[anndet92]

Oh and I also believe that sexual sin that involves VICTIMS is a totally different level of evil than consensual sex.

In other words, two consenting adults in which there is no deception (ex. two unmarried people) is completely different than rape and/or cheating on your spouse.

[JohnH]

I honestly do not think that any man, no matter how stellar his record, and his actual conduct, should ever give private counsel to a young woman, or someone else's wife. Paul ascribes this sort of ministry to 'older women'.

In particular, I don't think any man should do ministry/counselling to a young woman/girl by sitting him on her lap.

Yet that's what Leroy Miller was doing, under Steve Stutzman's instruction and full endorsement, and Stutzman continues to promote this practice. (They also sometimes do it in reverse, with a man sitting on a woman's lap.)

I have also cringed when a confession gets too detailed. This can cause sinful mental images to come up in the minds of the hearers, which appears to be to be bringing temptation on others. How much needs to be said? I get it (and agree), that there should never be any excuses or evasion.

Details should be shared in a more private setting with a minister and some other brethren so that the truth is told, but not in a filthy way.

Oh and I also believe that sexual sin that involves VICTIMS is a totally different level of evil than consensual sex.

In other words, two consenting adults in which there is no deception (ex. two unmarried people) is completely different than rape and/or cheating on your spouse.

It certainly appears that way in the Bible, where the death penalty was called for for most such situations. In addition, Anabaptists are supposed to be nonviolent. I'd frankly like to see a bit more accountability for men who engage in violence against their victims. I can't run around town beating up people I don't like, so why is it OK to do it to a young girl or child?

[temporal1]

In scriptures, former sinners guilty of heinous crimes weren’t later chosen by church committees or communities or vote
to be put in places of responsbility. (To retain humility.)

Heinous carnal sins (esp perpetrated on the vulnerable) are equal to/greater than murder - it’s murder of souls+spirits,
even when physical bodies look “just fine”.

My family knows, i care more for the condition of their souls+spirits, no matter how great they may look, no matter earthly accomplishments (or failures). i hope they know how serious i am about this. i couldn’t be more serious. i hope they care.

As scriptures inform, leaders, the privileged, are more in need of prayer than any.
As Abe Lincoln reflected, adversity is not the hardest part of life on earth.

With power and privilege comes increased tests. Be vigilant.

Abraham Lincoln:
‘Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.'
https://www.socratic-method.com/quote-m ... -him-power

i’ve heard popes+presidents ask/plead for prayers as they work.
i think these are important and sobering requests. for the conscientious, responsibility is humblng.

- - - - - - -

we want easy, clear answers!
we don’t always have easy answers. we usually have clues. prayers for discernment.

[temporal1]

Jesus didn’t mince words. -1min

millstones

[Neto]

Oh and I also believe that sexual sin that involves VICTIMS is a totally different level of evil than consensual sex.

In other words, two consenting adults in which there is no deception (ex. two unmarried people) is completely different than rape and/or cheating on your spouse.

I think that 'consent' is a sort of scale where some 'consent' is actually the result of coercion, where one person keeps 'asking' until the other gives in. I also believe that all men were created to be protectors, and for any man to ask a girl or woman to do something she knows that she should say no to, that is also a form of abuse. The man is sinning against her, because he is not fulfilling his God-given responsibility (given to him in creation). And (and I do not mean this in any belittling way), woman was created to say yes. So a man who asks her to do something she shouldn't is taking advantage of her created place in God's design, in order to do an evil thing.

[temporal1]

Oh and I also believe that sexual sin that involves VICTIMS is a totally different level of evil than consensual sex.

In other words, two consenting adults in which there is no deception (ex. two unmarried people) is completely different than rape and/or cheating on your spouse.

I think that 'consent' is a sort of scale where some 'consent' is actually the result of coercion, where one person keeps 'asking' until the other gives in. I also believe that all men were created to be protectors, and for any man to ask a girl or woman to do something she knows that she should say no to, that is also a form of abuse. The man is sinning against her, because he is not fulfilling his God-given responsibility (given to him in creation). And (and I do not mean this in any belittling way), woman was created to say yes. So a man who asks her to do something she shouldn't is taking advantage of her created place in God's design, in order to do an evil thing.

i’m not sure i’ve understood that women were created to say yes, altho submission is an important aspect of Christian faith, in varying ways accordng to gender, also wrt other earthly roles.

Could you explain more about this?

i’d like to see understanding of and respect for Christian submission get attention.
As it is, in the world, submission has been made into a nearly taboo word.

my understanding is, resistence to sin is part of the female objective, much like males. i.e., don’t sin.
my experience has been, men are generally more vulnerable to what they see, women more vulnerable to what they hear/lies. (??)

males and females can lead into sin.
“feminism” and the internet remove all doubt.

[Neto]

Oh and I also believe that sexual sin that involves VICTIMS is a totally different level of evil than consensual sex.

In other words, two consenting adults in which there is no deception (ex. two unmarried people) is completely different than rape and/or cheating on your spouse.

I think that 'consent' is a sort of scale where some 'consent' is actually the result of coercion, where one person keeps 'asking' until the other gives in. I also believe that all men were created to be protectors, and for any man to ask a girl or woman to do something she knows that she should say no to, that is also a form of abuse. The man is sinning against her, because he is not fulfilling his God-given responsibility (given to him in creation). And (and I do not mean this in any belittling way), woman was created to say yes. So a man who asks her to do something she shouldn't is taking advantage of her created place in God's design, in order to do an evil thing.

i’m not sure i’ve understood that women were created to say yes, altho submission is an important aspect of Christian faith, in varying ways accordng to gender, also wrt other earthly roles.

Could you explain more about this?

i’d like to see understanding of and respect for Christian submission get attention.
As it is, in the world, submission has been made into a nearly taboo word.

my understanding is, resistence to sin is part of the female objective, much like males. i.e., don’t sin.
my experience has been, men are generally more vulnerable to what they see, women more vulnerable to what they hear/lies. (??)

males and females can lead into sin.
“feminism” and the internet remove all doubt.

Mostly it is related to the phrase in Genesis - "an help meet for you" (God to Adam, about Eve). From what I've read, it's a phrase much more complex and deep than just making a noun out of the whole phrase, as "helpmeet", or simply 'helper'. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, so I've absorbed this from those who are. I read definitions like "one opposite you', which may inspire complementarianism. But I get the idea that there is something complicated in this 'oppositeness'. Some translations read as 'one fit for you', as in one who fulfills your 'deficiencies'. (Dare we suggest that Adam was in some way 'deficient'? It seems that he himself felt something like that.)

I'm still feeling like I haven't well explained myself. Like, How does the above suggest that the woman was created to say 'Yes'?

But I DO agree that every woman has the God-given ability (through the grace of God) to say 'NO!' when that is the right response. And, as well as the ability, the responsibility to do so. However, I just still feel that the man has a responsibility to protect that makes him in some way share the blame for her yes when no is the correct answer.

I often think of a couple of times when I should have interrupted an interaction I just happened to see or overhear. Once when a young man (in Bible college) made a very disrespectful comment to his girl friend just as I passed them on the stairs. I could still show you the exact place where each of us were when I heard him do that. I have often wished that I had reprimanded him right then and there, by saying something like "You can't talk like that to my sister". Another time when a guy persisted in putting his hand on a girls leg, even though she kept pushing his hand away.

[temporal1]

Mostly it is related to the phrase in Genesis - "an help meet for you" (God to Adam, about Eve). From what I've read, it's a phrase much more complex and deep than just making a noun out of the whole phrase, as "helpmeet", or simply 'helper'. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, so I've absorbed this from those who are. I read definitions like "one opposite you', which may inspire complementarianism. But I get the idea that there is something complicated in this 'oppositeness'. Some translations read as 'one fit for you', as in one who fulfills your 'deficiencies'. (Dare we suggest that Adam was in some way 'deficient'? It seems that he himself felt something like that.)

I'm still feeling like I haven't well explained myself. Like, How does the above suggest that the woman was created to say 'Yes'?

But I DO agree that every woman has the God-given ability (through the grace of God) to say 'NO!' when that is the right response. And, as well as the ability, the responsibility to do so. However, I just still feel that the man has a responsibility to protect that makes him in some way share the blame for her yes when no is the correct answer.

I often think of a couple of times when I should have interrupted an interaction I just happened to see or overhear. Once when a young man (in Bible college) made a very disrespectful comment to his girl friend just as I passed them on the stairs. I could still show you the exact place where each of us were when I heard him do that. I have often wished that I had reprimanded him right then and there, by saying something like "You can't talk like that to my sister". Another time when a guy persisted in putting his hand on a girls leg, even though she kept pushing his hand away.

Thank you.
i appreciate this, i want to keep thinking about it and learn more. Your wording piques my interest.

i’m none too pleased with the dominance of secular-centric mentality
that goes so far as to dismiss scriptures for being mysogynistic.

There is tremendous loneliness and pain in the world, much due to ignorance of scriptures and God’s design.
Worse than ignorance, is abuse of scriptures.

God does not abuse. That’s a starting place.

[temporal1]

New Testament

Jesus didn’t mince words. -1min

millstones

BABYLON BEE / Apostle Paul / Sensitivity Training

https://babylonbee.com/news/apostle-pau ... ning-again

Apostle Paul Called In For Sensitivity Training Again
Mar 20, 2025 · BabylonBee.com
Image for article: Apostle Paul Called In For Sensitivity Training Again

JERUSALEM — Apostolic sources report that the Apostle Paul was called into the head office for more mandatory sensitivity training yesterday after firing off another one of his epistles to the church at Galatia.

According to members of the Galatian church, Paul had somehow managed to offend most of the local congregants by calling them "silly little lemmings led astray by a fake and gay gospel" in his letter.

"You're not wrong, Paul,
but do you have to be quite so blunt about it?" Peter asked Paul.
“And did you have to write that you wish that people harming the church would castrate themselves?
I mean, aren't you the guy telling people to speak the truth in love? You know you've got to be winsome to win some, you know."

Members of the Corinthian church, who had also received a fiery letter from Paul, also reportedly asked him to quit talking about
"the whole incest thing already," which prompted Paul to write them a letter of correction and "Your Mom" jokes.

"I am not ashamed of calling out sin," Paul told his fellow apostles. "And are we to let open sin go on in the name of sensitivity? By no means! Let us cast aside the sensitivity which ensnares preaching the word and stir up our brothers and sisters to love and good works openly and without fear."

At publishing time, Paul had failed a mandatory human resources training session which involved making allowances for men to have long hair.

you know you know