Oasis Chorale dancing

[seeking-artist]

I feel the same way. You've engaged in repeated appeals to authority (without ever bothering to ask me what my own background or credentials might be, making an assumption I am uneducated simply because I take a position against worldly pursuits in music).

I asked you what your background was before, which prompted you to accuse me of appeals to authority. But if you want to be asked, I'll happily ask you: what is your background and training in music?

[ohio jones]

I'm also not "anti-rock." I'm a classical musician, so my tastes naturally lean in that direction. What's wrong with me wanting my students to play classical rather than rock?

Because I think your motivations to do this is to soothe concerned plain Anabaptists who would say, "We are concerned that promoting worldly classical music will eventually lead to worldly pop, rock, hip-hop, rap, R&B, and country." I understand your motivation, but I think you need to listen to their concerns about a slippery slope much more seriously.

Why would you assume that the classical music being referenced is "worldly classical music"? There's plenty of sacred classical music.

[JohnH]

I feel the same way. You've engaged in repeated appeals to authority (without ever bothering to ask me what my own background or credentials might be, making an assumption I am uneducated simply because I take a position against worldly pursuits in music).

I asked you what your background was before, which prompted you to accuse me of appeals to authority. But if you want to be asked, I'll happily ask you: what is your background and training in music?

Started taking piano lessons when I was 7, studied music ever since then, including formal instruction, then studied it in college as well. I also performed in various church type bands and cover type bands, along with songwriting in one of those. (My best instrument was bass, followed by drums; I'm just not good enough to be a classical pianist, although I can play keyboard acceptably for leading worship songs.)

My biggest area of interest had been mixing and mastering.

Interestingly, the people I played with the most are all plain Anabaptists now to and want absolutely nothing to do with the music industry, and are also very concerned about people trying to take the plain world in the directory you want to take it. Perhaps you should listen to them. I'd be happy to connect you.

[barnhart]

Re: choruses, hymns, or music written by 'Plain people":

From what I've observed, there are very few composers among us. Some do arrangements of existing hymns, etc. A couple years ago our pastor did a special service, where people could sing a song, do a recitation (a poem, short discourse, or Scripture by memory), etc. I went up and sang a couple of songs in different languages of Brazil (and maybe in Portuguese as well - I don't remember now). But here's my point -I did this in order to give a 'call' for missionary work. You can use most any type of skill in mission work, but since we have lots of musicians in our congregation, I gave a push for ethnomusicologists. I asked how many had written a song or music themselves. No one. Not a single person, even with many of those present who lead or participate in the 'worship teams' that perform every Sunday morning. I was totally surprised. I'm not even a musician, but I put a Bible verse in Cheyenne to the traditional music style, as well as having made up Christian songs in Banawa. I have never taken any courses in ethnomusicology, even though you can even do a 4 year degree program in that field. And I don't think I'm a very good singer, either. I thought that my appeal would be speaking directly to people who might have even been wondering 'Can I use this skill to server God, to help bring the Gospel of Jesus to those who have never heard it, or who haven't listened, and WOULD listen if it was presented in their own music style?'

Come on brothers & sisters. Write lyrics that represent our understanding of what God desires of us, that express our understanding of true and right doctrine, of blessed obedience.

[EDIT: OOPS. I guess I'm not suppose to ask people to do something here.]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing. I the path we are on is healthy, why does it seem sterile?

[JohnH]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing.

Amongst the plain circles I'm in where instruments and recordings are avoided, there are lots of songwriters - you can usually find at least one in any congregation.

In the non-plain circles I've been in, finding songwriters (at the level where someone other than their family or their own congregation has ever sung a song they wrote) was quite rare.

My view is that elitism and professionalism in the arts leads to a typical congregation not having a single person who writes songs, because none of them reach the elite, professional levels that end up feeling necessary to be "worthy" of writing songs.

[Neto]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing.

Amongst the plain circles I'm in where instruments and recordings are avoided, there are lots of songwriters - you can usually find at least one in any congregation.

In the non-plain circles I've been in, finding songwriters (at the level where someone other than their family or their own congregation has ever sung a song they wrote) was quite rare.

My view is that elitism and professionalism in the arts leads to a typical congregation not having a single person who writes songs, because none of them reach the elite, professional levels that end up feeling necessary to be "worthy" of writing songs.

My feeling is that anyone who can write good poetry (that doesn't force the sentence level stress to go on the wrong "Sy LAB ble", and that doesn't force rhyming with silly word choices) should be able to write music that goes with the mood of the lyrics.

On the latter, matching the mood of the music to the mood of the lyrics reminds me of an old Eddy Arnold Western-Swing song from the later 40's. The song is about a man whose wife left him, but the music doesn't match - it's too 'upbeat'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ANsk4g3v4w

[R7ehr]

Just a pasisng question here. I like the proposition that more of us ought to be writing songs, though we seem to accept it as a self evident truth. I can certainly see the discipline it demands of, and the benefit for the writer. But in an era already having a superabundance of songs, a veritable plethora of songbooks filled with far more material than we will ever learn or sing, what exactly is the impetus for creating more?

[JohnH]

Just a pasisng question here. I like the proposition that more of us ought to be writing songs, though we seem to accept it as a self evident truth. I can certainly see the discipline it demands of, and the benefit for the writer. But in an era already having a superabundance of songs, a veritable plethora of songbooks filled with far more material than we will ever learn or sing, what exactly is the impetus for creating more?

I've asked the same thing. For many, I think it's just a hobby or something they enjoy.

I find the attempts to commercialise it very distasteful, and eventually that just leads to churning out songs. And the ultimate end is mass-generated AI slop, such as this:

https://thepromisequartet.com/

The Promise Quartet sings the promises of God, one song at a time. Four voices, close harmony, and songs written for the moments when you need reminding that He will bring you through.

Rooted in the great tradition of Southern Gospel quartet singing — tight four-part harmony, timeless truth, and a message that has never needed updating.

He’ll Bring You Through, their debut album, released in August 2026 — ten songs of promise and praise, written by Joshua Booth.

The Quartet

Caleb Hart — Tenor
Micah Reynolds — Lead
Nathan Whitfield — Baritone
Ethan Brooks — Bass

The problem here is that none of these people actually exist. The person behind this expressed his satisfaction that since he expanded his scope to Christian praise & worship / gospel songs, he's making a lot more money out of literally generating hundreds of these types of "quartets" and "bands".

[seeking-artist]

Regardless, is there actually a principled objection to having more performing artists within an Anabaptist community? To me that's the most important question. If the answer is no, then we can move on to figuring out how to make it work.

For Plain Anabaptists, the principled objection is that performance art generally fosters pride and a love for the world.

Many Non-Plain Anabaptists believe the opposite is true and they have been "figuring out how to make it work in their communities" since about 1850.

The argument against "pride and a love for the world" is the go-to for basically anything Plain Anabaptists don't like, though. What actually warrants performing arts being put in this category? If playing an instrument in public is a demonstration of pride, how come running a large business isn't seem the same way? Etc.

[Ernie]

I think this is a quality post that illustrates some of the questions I have about the troubled relationship Anabaptists have with the arts, in this case singing. If the path we are on is healthy, why does it seem sterile?

Can you tell me more about the path you are referring to? When did it start? Who is on it? Is the path different from what it was earlier?