Biblical Mennonite Alliance and credential removal of past abusers

[I Timothy]

OK I may clarify a bit , about Eicher's background ,what little I know of him.He was about 8 years old when I would have known him and his home family ...He is a very forceful speaker today , just look him up on Youtube, speaking as recently as Aug. 02-26....
The Aylmer Ont. Amish , have been a very corrupt lot , preachers and all taking part in some of the vilest sexual situations one can imagine ,I won't repeat them here in detail ,they're so bad ...and well documented, some involved minor children , jail time was served by several preachers , much of it was swept under the rug, so to speak.
It may be that's fairly common in mature Amish areas ....anywhere and everywhere ...A good bit of that may come from how most Amish look at and use and abuse their women , they have no standing or respect for them at all , just as objects .
And then the way they ,most Amish ,regard their preachers and Bishops , they're like untouchable ,for life .A preacher gets out of Jail for molesting his daughters ,he's put right back to preaching ...How vile is that ..

The Limited info I Have about Eicher , is that his acts are , as he himself described it as "Improper touching , or rubbing ,of young girls , but there was always clothes ,or cloth ,between his hands and the subject"....
That he ended up at the BMA Church in Va. Where the Bishop before him was a giant BMA Pillar,and BMA Bible school principle ,who was later exposed and jailed for molesting young boys, is remarkable indeed .at least he's not preaching today..Compared to him ,Eicher's misdeeds,decades ago, sound rather minor, indeed ....

This clarification somehow makes the defense much worse. We go from “where is the forgiveness?” to an admission of “improper touching or rubbing of young girls,” followed by the astonishing conclusion that it sounds “rather minor” because another preacher did something and got jailed. Whether clothing was between someone's hands and a girl's body is hardly the standard for determining qualifications for spiritual leadership.

Relevant questions are

How old these “young girls” were?
What happened?
How often?
What authority he held over them?
Who knew and was it properly reported?
What safeguards were used before placing him in leadership?

Forgiveness is Christian yes. Grading sexual misconduct on a curve and calling it minor because somebody else went to jail for worse behavior is not accountability. We can do better than this.

[Jude1]

OK I may clarify a bit , about Eicher's background ,what little I know of him.He was about 8 years old when I would have known him and his home family ...He is a very forceful speaker today , just look him up on Youtube, speaking as recently as Aug. 02-26....
The Aylmer Ont. Amish , have been a very corrupt lot , preachers and all taking part in some of the vilest sexual situations one can imagine ,I won't repeat them here in detail ,they're so bad ...and well documented, some involved minor children , jail time was served by several preachers , much of it was swept under the rug, so to speak.
It may be that's fairly common in mature Amish areas ....anywhere and everywhere ...A good bit of that may come from how most Amish look at and use and abuse their women , they have no standing or respect for them at all , just as objects .
And then the way they ,most Amish ,regard their preachers and Bishops , they're like untouchable ,for life .A preacher gets out of Jail for molesting his daughters ,he's put right back to preaching ...How vile is that ..

The Limited info I Have about Eicher , is that his acts are , as he himself described it as "Improper touching , or rubbing ,of young girls , but there was always clothes ,or cloth ,between his hands and the subject"....
That he ended up at the BMA Church in Va. Where the Bishop before him was a giant BMA Pillar,and BMA Bible school principle ,who was later exposed and jailed for molesting young boys, is remarkable indeed .at least he's not preaching today..Compared to him ,Eicher's misdeeds,decades ago, sound rather minor, indeed ....

With all due respect, sir, I feel compelled to respond to your comment:

The language you are using in this comment is extremely dismissive. I understand that you used Eicher’s language to describe his own crimes, but the last sentence you described them as “minor”.

I understand that many people feel that abuse over clothing is minor or not as bad as full blown rape. But the reality is that the impact is the same on victims in many ways, and I would caution everyone against using this kind of language when describing it.

Also, please keep in mind that Eicher is using minimizing words to describe his actions. “Improper touching” is still abuse. “Rubbing” is still abuse. Him making sure there’s cloth between his hands and the GIRL (again the word “subject” is dehumanizing and objectifying in this context) does not change the fact that this is full blown abuse!

Eicher needs people to minimize what he did in order to retain some respect/reputation. I don’t care how forceful of a speaker he is.

What he did is evil. The girl carry the scars; and I’m not going to sit back while his crimes are minimized on this forum.

I agree 100%. We need to keep in mind that perpetrators will always downplay the 'levels' of abuse. If eicher says it was only a little improper touch or groping through clothes we can be fairly certain it was quite a bit more than that. I feel so sorry for his poor victims if they happen to read what he says.

[Soloist]

OK I may clarify a bit , about Eicher's background ,what little I know of him.He was about 8 years old when I would have known him and his home family ...He is a very forceful speaker today , just look him up on Youtube, speaking as recently as Aug. 02-26....
The Aylmer Ont. Amish , have been a very corrupt lot , preachers and all taking part in some of the vilest sexual situations one can imagine ,I won't repeat them here in detail ,they're so bad ...and well documented, some involved minor children , jail time was served by several preachers , much of it was swept under the rug, so to speak.
It may be that's fairly common in mature Amish areas ....anywhere and everywhere ...A good bit of that may come from how most Amish look at and use and abuse their women , they have no standing or respect for them at all , just as objects .
And then the way they ,most Amish ,regard their preachers and Bishops , they're like untouchable ,for life .A preacher gets out of Jail for molesting his daughters ,he's put right back to preaching ...How vile is that ..

The Limited info I Have about Eicher , is that his acts are , as he himself described it as "Improper touching , or rubbing ,of young girls , but there was always clothes ,or cloth ,between his hands and the subject"....
That he ended up at the BMA Church in Va. Where the Bishop before him was a giant BMA Pillar,and BMA Bible school principle ,who was later exposed and jailed for molesting young boys, is remarkable indeed .at least he's not preaching today..Compared to him ,Eicher's misdeeds,decades ago, sound rather minor, indeed ....

With all due respect, sir, I feel compelled to respond to your comment:

The language you are using in this comment is extremely dismissive. I understand that you used Eicher’s language to describe his own crimes, but the last sentence you described them as “minor”.

I understand that many people feel that abuse over clothing is minor or not as bad as full blown rape. But the reality is that the impact is the same on victims in many ways, and I would caution everyone against using this kind of language when describing it.

Also, please keep in mind that Eicher is using minimizing words to describe his actions. “Improper touching” is still abuse. “Rubbing” is still abuse. Him making sure there’s cloth between his hands and the GIRL (again the word “subject” is dehumanizing and objectifying in this context) does not change the fact that this is full blown abuse!

Eicher needs people to minimize what he did in order to retain some respect/reputation. I don’t care how forceful of a speaker he is.

What he did is evil. The girl carry the scars; and I’m not going to sit back while his crimes are minimized on this forum.

Wife: sounds like he should’ve never been qualified for ministry in the first place, in accordance to first Timothy 3, and Titus 1. Speaking ability was never on the list (other than a general ability to teach in Timothy), but conduct and reputation among outsiders is. I hate it when people make it sound like the inability to be a minister is somehow a sign of unforgiveness when the majority of the laity never are ministers either.

[ken_sylvania]

BMA is not a rigid conference-like structure, doesn't own much of anything, and doesn't control things like EBI. It's a voluntary association. Their power is limited to removing a listing in a directory - although "soft power" certainly counts too.

I guess maybe to a guy like you $4MM in net assets isn't much of anything. For some of us $4MM would count as something.
What do they do with their $3MM to $4MM in annual revenue if they don't control anything?

Something interesting shows up in Biblical Mennonite Alliance's IRS record online. BMA filed Form 990s for a number of years, and data shows returns in 2020 and 2023. However, 2019, 2021, and 2022 appear missing in publicly available records. Why aren't those records online like other organizations?

There's another interesting change. Apparently BMA is not required to file Form 990 because the IRS now designates it as a church starting August 2024. That may be entirely legitimate. What changed in 2024? BMA apparently went from an organization with a Form 990 filing requirement, like a non profit, to one classified as a church and exempt from that requirement. You won't see where the money is going anymore.

BMA still solicits missions funds from donors, including churches not within it's association. Lot's of questions here also with less accountability.

Why aren't your financials available online? We can't see where your money is going. Lots of questions with no accountability.

Seriously, it's easy to frame questions in such a way as to imply something isn't right, but that's not generally very helpful.

[JohnH]

There's another interesting change. Apparently BMA is not required to file Form 990 because the IRS now designates it as a church starting August 2024. That may be entirely legitimate. What changed in 2024? BMA apparently went from an organization with a Form 990 filing requirement, like a non profit, to one classified as a church and exempt from that requirement. You won't see where the money is going anymore.

BMA still solicits missions funds from donors, including churches not within it's association. Lot's of questions here also with less accountability.

Are you saying BMA is not a church?

Churches have never had to file a 990. They may do so voluntarily, though. Finding a CPA to do one is a challenge and often quite expensive.

[I Timothy]

I guess maybe to a guy like you $4MM in net assets isn't much of anything. For some of us $4MM would count as something.
What do they do with their $3MM to $4MM in annual revenue if they don't control anything?

Something interesting shows up in Biblical Mennonite Alliance's IRS record online. BMA filed Form 990s for a number of years, and data shows returns in 2020 and 2023. However, 2019, 2021, and 2022 appear missing in publicly available records. Why aren't those records online like other organizations?

There's another interesting change. Apparently BMA is not required to file Form 990 because the IRS now designates it as a church starting August 2024. That may be entirely legitimate. What changed in 2024? BMA apparently went from an organization with a Form 990 filing requirement, like a non profit, to one classified as a church and exempt from that requirement. You won't see where the money is going anymore.

BMA still solicits missions funds from donors, including churches not within it's association. Lot's of questions here also with less accountability.

Why aren't your financials available online? We can't see where your money is going. Lots of questions with no accountability.

Seriously, it's easy to frame questions in such a way as to imply something isn't right, but that's not generally very helpful.

You are asking a good question. I am a private citizen who supports myself. My finances are private.

BMA, along with other organizations, survive by asking others for donations and funds. They are also tax exempt, not paying taxes on income or property. As such, they have accountability by filing form 990 to show where the money is coming and going.

Asking why BMA’s 990s apparently disappeared for certain years, or what changed when the IRS classification eliminated the 990 filing requirement, is not equivalent to asking a private citizen to publish his finances. Asking “Why can’t I see your money?” is not the same as, “What financial accountability replaced the public disclosure that previously existed?”

I am not saying BMA did wrong. I am asking a legitimate accountability question for an organization asking people and other churches to entrust it with their money.

[JohnH]

You are asking a good question. I am a private citizen who supports myself. My finances are private.

BMA, along with other organizations, survive by asking others for donations and funds. They are also tax exempt, not paying taxes on income or property. As such, they have accountability by filing form 990 to show where the money is coming and going.

Churches have never been required to file form 990s, and don’t have to show anyone where the money is coming and going - not the government, their parishioners, the public, or anyone else. Of course, donors can request this, and choose not to donate if they aren’t provided the information they want.

A church’s tax exemption does not depend on them filing any forms or getting any special privileges from the government; it is rather a right, not a privilege.

Asking why BMA’s 990s apparently disappeared for certain years, or what changed when the IRS classification eliminated the 990 filing requirement, is not equivalent to asking a private citizen to publish his finances. Asking “Why can’t I see your money?” is not the same as, “What financial accountability replaced the public disclosure that previously existed?”

I am not saying BMA did wrong. I am asking a legitimate accountability question for an organization asking people and other churches to entrust it with their money.

Aren’t you a BMA member? Go ask them. I’m not a member nor donor, so I don’t think I need to be nosing around.

[flyingnorm]

We are transitioning from a generation that blindly trusted individuals and institutions based on the traditional respect for a position.

That kind of culture of loyalty and respect for a position and its holder has largely eroded in the last number of decades. We can cry about it and blame the young people or we can take responsibility for our own actions and relate with people in the real world we find ourselves in.

That brings us to the present.

Trust is largely built from ground zero. This is done one difficult day at a time. One person at a time. Trust is earned slowly and can be lost quickly.

Trust is a product not of perfection or of being a position holder, but of honesty and transparency about our imperfections, and care for another persons needs.

Similar to an individual, an institution needs to be honest and transparent in order to gain or maintain any respect and trust.

Theatrics and politics do not build trust. They erode trust in a society characterized by scepticism. People leave the show they are watching if they don’t like it.

Excuses and minimization are pretty gross to watch. They speak of self protective strategies that drive wounds deeper.

Power and control moves may delay inevitable outcomes but cause greater future pain for everyone involved.

Snagging convenient scapegoats in order to avoid personal and institutional responsibility causes a miscarriage of redemption. It causes a single person to bear the sin of many plus his own sins while socially freeing the puppet masters and building their personal power.

Blaming nebulous groups is a convenient way of saying “something is wrong, but since we don’t know who to blame we will fix nothing.”

Truth and transparency is rewarding for those that believe the Gospel of the grace and forgiveness of Christ. Willing acceptance of accountability and consequences is evidence of heart change. Honour shown to victims and those that speak up is evidence of reoriented values.

This isn’t as hard as people make it. Seeking Humility in the Kingdom of God as opposed to seeking social credibility, power in a kingdom of man is a massive win for the eternal destiny of the persons willing to take that road.

Humility invites evaluation, learning, reflection, repentance, coming down off our thrones and walking with people as opposed to attempting to control everything from our high and mighty position of power and control.

[Neto]

I guess maybe to a guy like you $4MM in net assets isn't much of anything. For some of us $4MM would count as something.
What do they do with their $3MM to $4MM in annual revenue if they don't control anything?

Something interesting shows up in Biblical Mennonite Alliance's IRS record online. BMA filed Form 990s for a number of years, and data shows returns in 2020 and 2023. However, 2019, 2021, and 2022 appear missing in publicly available records. Why aren't those records online like other organizations?

There's another interesting change. Apparently BMA is not required to file Form 990 because the IRS now designates it as a church starting August 2024. That may be entirely legitimate. What changed in 2024? BMA apparently went from an organization with a Form 990 filing requirement, like a non profit, to one classified as a church and exempt from that requirement. You won't see where the money is going anymore.

BMA still solicits missions funds from donors, including churches not within it's association. Lot's of questions here also with less accountability.

Why aren't your financials available online? We can't see where your money is going. Lots of questions with no accountability.
....

Why should the financial statements be available on-line? (I'm pretty sure I receive annual financial statements for DNI. (And I'm not in a BMA member congregation. We just support a member who is in DNI. Or, if this mission in Mexico is NOT under DNI, why not? Is it possibly only BMA in that it is run and supported by a BMA congregation, or a small group of congregations?)

[JohnH]

Why should the financial statements be available on-line? (I'm pretty sure I receive annual financial statements for DNI. (And I'm not in a BMA member congregation. We just support a member who is in DNI. Or, if this mission in Mexico is NOT under DNI, why not? Is it possibly only BMA in that it is run and supported by a BMA congregation, or a small group of congregations?)

I keep financial records available for inspection (when required by law) at our stated business address, available during business hours. An appointment may be necessary if nobody is there to let you in the door and direct you to the right filing cabinet.

There is no way I am going to just blanket put those records online. It would take effort to filter them out and remove data that is not technically private but could be quite damaging if easily searchable on the web (e.g. certain EIN numbers, bank account details, information that personally identifies people, and so on), and then I'd run the risk that it wouldn't be a valid public disclosure.