FSD Vehicles

[JohnH]

I imagine that self-driving cars DO get in fewer accidents. For one reason, there are far fewer of them on the roadways.

They get in far fewer accidents per capita. In other words, they are much safer. Accidents in Waymos are extremely rare: 5 accidents with serious injuries so far and 1 fatality - all the fault of a human driving the other car.

As to whether I would purchase such a car, it is a mute question because I couldn't afford one anyway, and how could I possibly know ahead of time that it would save someone's life? I'm not convinced that is so.

Yes, it was more of a hypothetical since you said you would refuse to buy a car with FSD, so I was asking the question if that refusal would extend to if they had been proven to save lives vs. buying a non-FSD new car for a similar price (or, as may be the case, buying a used car with FSD).

I have seen videos from a guy who conducts tests with totally self driving cars (where he is actually in the back seat). (He apparently does this to create his own media or 'pod cast' content.) He purposely chose destinations that would normally involve left turns on intersections where there is normally a good deal of traffic. He showed videos of where the car would avoid the left turns by looping around using multiple right turns. Then the car came to a place where the right lane was closed, and had cones to mark the closure. The car stalled, not knowing what to do. He called the company, who had drivers out in various parts of the city they could send in to physically drive the vehicle to the desired destination. There was one about 3 or 5 minutes away, but then the car suddenly "decided" to continue, pulling out into the left lane, as though it was going to make the designated right turn. Then it stopped again. Meanwhile, the person who was heading in that direction was notified that the problem was resolved, so he/she headed off to take care of another issue elsewhere. So the car was now blocking part of the left lane. After other (actual) drivers were honking at it, the car made the turn, but there were cones in that roadway as well, so it pulled into the left lane there, and permanently stopped. So the rider was ecstatic, as he'd never recorded such a fiasco before. He excitedly described the whole deal, until an 'escort driver' arrived, and guided the "self-driving car" to the destination.

I would not really put much stock in influencers who are making recordings where they try to get in accidents.

The simple reality is that FSDs are far safer.

[R7ehr]

In deciding which car to purchase, the question more pertinent, is: “Is a FSD car safer than I drive a car?”.
If not, then I am better off without FSD.
If so, then I am better off with FSD.
For policy, it is better to to look at data. For individuals purchasing for themselves, the whole is not as important.

[Neto]

I imagine that self-driving cars DO get in fewer accidents. For one reason, there are far fewer of them on the roadways.

They get in far fewer accidents per capita. In other words, they are much safer. Accidents in Waymos are extremely rare: 5 accidents with serious injuries so far and 1 fatality - all the fault of a human driving the other car.

As to whether I would purchase such a car, it is a mute question because I couldn't afford one anyway, and how could I possibly know ahead of time that it would save someone's life? I'm not convinced that is so.

Yes, it was more of a hypothetical since you said you would refuse to buy a car with FSD, so I was asking the question if that refusal would extend to if they had been proven to save lives vs. buying a non-FSD new car for a similar price (or, as may be the case, buying a used car with FSD).

I have seen videos from a guy who conducts tests with totally self driving cars (where he is actually in the back seat). (He apparently does this to create his own media or 'pod cast' content.) He purposely chose destinations that would normally involve left turns on intersections where there is normally a good deal of traffic. He showed videos of where the car would avoid the left turns by looping around using multiple right turns. Then the car came to a place where the right lane was closed, and had cones to mark the closure. The car stalled, not knowing what to do. He called the company, who had drivers out in various parts of the city they could send in to physically drive the vehicle to the desired destination. There was one about 3 or 5 minutes away, but then the car suddenly "decided" to continue, pulling out into the left lane, as though it was going to make the designated right turn. Then it stopped again. Meanwhile, the person who was heading in that direction was notified that the problem was resolved, so he/she headed off to take care of another issue elsewhere. So the car was now blocking part of the left lane. After other (actual) drivers were honking at it, the car made the turn, but there were cones in that roadway as well, so it pulled into the left lane there, and permanently stopped. So the rider was ecstatic, as he'd never recorded such a fiasco before. He excitedly described the whole deal, until an 'escort driver' arrived, and guided the "self-driving car" to the destination.

I would not really put much stock in influencers who are making recordings where they try to get in accidents.

The simple reality is that FSDs are far safer.

He wasn't trying to get in an accident. He was simply wanting to see how the car would deal with the same type of difficult situations that a real driver would.

I am still not convinced. Why? Because the per capita factor (which hadn't been mentioned) is probably based on all cases of accidents where a human was controlling the vehicle. So what is actually being compared is the over-all average of all drivers, including those who are driving while intoxicated, extremely sleepy, etc. The comparison should be between the driverless cars and vehicles driven by sober, well rested humans. I say this because if I'm making a personal comparison, I am always sober, I get off and rest whenever I am sleepy, and I never look at my phone while driving. (I pull off to tend to telephone calls, even when I am on some back road here in Holmes County. It's the law, and I take that seriously. Not only because it is the law, but perhaps mainly because I also know that it is dangerous to do that.)

[JohnH]

I am still not convinced. Why? Because the per capita factor (which hadn't been mentioned) is probably based on all cases of accidents where a human was controlling the vehicle. So what is actually being compared is the over-all average of all drivers, including those who are driving while intoxicated, extremely sleepy, etc. The comparison should be between the driverless cars and vehicles driven by sober, well rested humans.

The FSD cars are also being driven by both sober, well rested humans and by not so well rested humans, possibly inebriated humans, and so forth. It's a fair comparison.

I say this because if I'm making a personal comparison, I am always sober, I get off and rest whenever I am sleepy, and I never look at my phone while driving. (I pull off to tend to telephone calls, even when I am on some back road here in Holmes County. It's the law, and I take that seriously. Not only because it is the law, but perhaps mainly because I also know that it is dangerous to do that.)

None of that means it is impossible you will not be involved in an accident that causes injury or loss of life. FSD saves lives, quite simply, and has now been proven to do so. Waymo and Tesla have logged millions of miles on the road, and their FSD options result in a far lower accident rate, both in terms of at fault and of not at fault accidents.

There is no law that you have to pull off to take phone calls in Ohio.

[ohio jones]

The FSD cars are also being driven by both sober, well rested humans and by not so well rested humans, possibly inebriated humans, and so forth. It's a fair comparison.

I thought the point of FSD cars is that they are not being driven by humans, in which case the degree of restedness or sobriety of the human not driving them is of questionable relevance.

[JohnH]

The FSD cars are also being driven by both sober, well rested humans and by not so well rested humans, possibly inebriated humans, and so forth. It's a fair comparison.

I thought the point of FSD cars is that they are not being driven by humans, in which case the degree of restedness or sobriety of the human not driving them is of questionable relevance.

Well, “driven”. Tesla requires a “driver” who just sits there, and in theory can take over. Waymo has an operator who is remote and only gets activated when something goes wrong.

In any case, Waymos and Tesla FSD are far safer than the rest of the U.S. fleet, so the question remains of why someone would refuse to use them, all else being equal.

[Neto]

....
There is no law that you have to pull off to take phone calls in Ohio.

The law seems contradictory on this point.

https://ohio.gov/residents/resources/distracted-driving

Distracted Driving
It is illegal to use or hold a cell phone or electronic device while driving in Ohio.
Ohio has no tolerance for distracted driving. It is against the law to use or hold a cell phone or electronic device while driving in Ohio. Officers can stop drivers they see operating or even holding a phone behind the wheel.

Phones down, Ohio. It's the Law.

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-cod ... n-4511.204

(A) No person shall operate a motor vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar on any street, highway, or property open to the public for vehicular traffic while using, holding, or physically supporting with any part of the person's body an electronic wireless communications device.

(B) Division (A) of this section does not apply to any of the following:

(1) A person using an electronic wireless communications device to make contact, for emergency purposes, with a law enforcement agency, hospital or health care provider, fire department, or other similar emergency agency or entity;

(2) A person driving a public safety vehicle while using an electronic wireless communications device in the course of the person's duties;

(3) A person using an electronic wireless communications device when the person's motor vehicle is in a stationary position and is outside a lane of travel, at a highway traffic signal that is currently directing traffic to stop, or parked on a road or highway due to an emergency or road closure;

(4) A person using and holding an electronic wireless communications device directly near the person's ear for the purpose of making, receiving, or conducting a telephone call, provided that the person does not manually enter letters, numbers, or symbols into the device;

(5) A person receiving wireless messages on an electronic wireless communications device regarding the operation or navigation of a motor vehicle; safety-related information, including emergency, traffic, or weather alerts; or data used primarily by the motor vehicle, provided that the person does not hold or support the device with any part of the person's body;

(6) A person using the speaker phone function of the electronic wireless communications device, provided that the person does not hold or support the device with any part of the person's body;
....

Regardless, I don't do this at all because I personally consider it to be potentially dangerous, to the point of causing an accident, or being unable to respond quickly enough to one caused by another driver. In other words, I wouldn't do it even if it isn't illegal. I just think that it is safer not to do it. I'm not claiming to be the "perfect driver" - but I try to do all I can to be as safe as possible. (And I often remind myself when I start off to 'extend grace', because I know that I do not naturally do that at all times. I need the reminder.)

[JohnH]

....
There is no law that you have to pull off to take phone calls in Ohio.

The law seems contradictory on this point.

https://ohio.gov/residents/resources/distracted-driving

Distracted Driving
It is illegal to use or hold a cell phone or electronic device while driving in Ohio.
Ohio has no tolerance for distracted driving. It is against the law to use or hold a cell phone or electronic device while driving in Ohio. Officers can stop drivers they see operating or even holding a phone behind the wheel.

Phones down, Ohio. It's the Law.

You can use a hands free device to speak on the phone and answer calls. You’re also allowed to press a button one time to answer a call (although this could be in your steering wheel, CarPlay screen, etc.)

https://codes.ohio.gov/ohio-revised-cod ... n-4511.204

(A) No person shall operate a motor vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar on any street, highway, or property open to the public for vehicular traffic while using, holding, or physically supporting with any part of the person's body an electronic wireless communications device.

(B) Division (A) of this section does not apply to any of the following:

(1) A person using an electronic wireless communications device to make contact, for emergency purposes, with a law enforcement agency, hospital or health care provider, fire department, or other similar emergency agency or entity;

(2) A person driving a public safety vehicle while using an electronic wireless communications device in the course of the person's duties;

(3) A person using an electronic wireless communications device when the person's motor vehicle is in a stationary position and is outside a lane of travel, at a highway traffic signal that is currently directing traffic to stop, or parked on a road or highway due to an emergency or road closure;

(4) A person using and holding an electronic wireless communications device directly near the person's ear for the purpose of making, receiving, or conducting a telephone call, provided that the person does not manually enter letters, numbers, or symbols into the device;

(5) A person receiving wireless messages on an electronic wireless communications device regarding the operation or navigation of a motor vehicle; safety-related information, including emergency, traffic, or weather alerts; or data used primarily by the motor vehicle, provided that the person does not hold or support the device with any part of the person's body;

(6) A person using the speaker phone function of the electronic wireless communications device, provided that the person does not hold or support the device with any part of the person's body;
....

Regardless, I don't do this at all because I personally consider it to be potentially dangerous, to the point of causing an accident, or being unable to respond quickly enough to one caused by another driver. In other words, I wouldn't do it even if it isn't illegal. I just think that it is safer not to do it. I'm not claiming to be the "perfect driver" - but I try to do all I can to be as safe as possible. (And I often remind myself when I start off to 'extend grace', because I know that I do not naturally do that at all times. I need the reminder.)

Everyone thinks they are a “safer driver” (until they have an accident). One problem we will all face is age related decline, and there isn’t anything we can do about it other than stop driving… or get an FSD type of solution. Doing so will save lives.

[ken_sylvania]

The FSD cars are also being driven by both sober, well rested humans and by not so well rested humans, possibly inebriated humans, and so forth. It's a fair comparison.

I thought the point of FSD cars is that they are not being driven by humans, in which case the degree of restedness or sobriety of the human not driving them is of questionable relevance.

Well, “driven”. Tesla requires a “driver” who just sits there, and in theory can take over. Waymo has an operator who is remote and only gets activated when something goes wrong.

In any case, Waymos and Tesla FSD are far safer than the rest of the U.S. fleet, so the question remains of why someone would refuse to use them, all else being equal.

All else is not equal.

[Bootstrap]

Everyone thinks they are a “safer driver” (until they have an accident). One problem we will all face is age related decline, and there isn’t anything we can do about it other than stop driving… or get an FSD type of solution. Doing so will save lives.

Seems like this is the kind of thing well designed driving tests could measure. I suspect some people are much safer than others. I imagine some autonomous vehicles, under certain driving conditions, are safer. Have you seen how Waymos drive and how that affects the traffic around them?

At any rate, repeating the same opinions over and over again doesn't really give us the data we need to know. MN is not the place where the answer will become clear. Is anyone saying anything new?

A discussion is not a wrestling match to force other people to agree.