Trudy Metzger/Steve Stutzman

[ken_sylvania]

I’m quite puzzled then how a marriage took place in Illinois if it weren’t legally recognised there. Regardless, in most of the world (including much of the U.S. and Canada) this relationship is entirely legal (minus the marriage part).

In any case, I really don’t understand why this person officiated the marriage ceremony, but at the same time I’m unclear on what this has to do with the rest of the crimes these persons are accused of.

I didn't say the marriage wasn't legally recognized in Illinois. I said it would require judicial or parental consent.

I don't know either what it has to do with the crimes of the accused. You're the one that drug it into the conversation!

Actually, the person officiating the marriage was drug into the conversation way back on page 14 by Anndet92. Amos Raber has expressed deep regret for officiating that marriage and he did so without knowing all the facts. Nevertheless, he has been thrown under the bus by TM and some (not all) of her followers. I believe she will have enough integrity to take the FB post about Amos Rabor down.

So... are you saying Amos Raber agrees with Trudy that he did the wrong thing by officiating that marriage?

[Grace]

I didn't say the marriage wasn't legally recognized in Illinois. I said it would require judicial or parental consent.

I don't know either what it has to do with the crimes of the accused. You're the one that drug it into the conversation!

Actually, the person officiating the marriage was drug into the conversation way back on page 14 by Anndet92. Amos Raber has expressed deep regret for officiating that marriage and he did so without knowing all the facts. Nevertheless, he has been thrown under the bus by TM and some (not all) of her followers. I believe she will have enough integrity to take the FB post about Amos Rabor down.

So... are you saying Amos Raber agrees with Trudy that he did the wrong thing by officiating that marriage?

Amos Raber's response to him officiating the marriage:

"You are right. I married them and regret it deeply.

As soon as I was made aware of the truth and the allegations, I confronted Chris Allen and the families and told them I would’ve never married them had I known before. I have not and will not cover for a perpetrator.

As of the gap/age difference – I do regret that. I was hesitant at the time, but upon seeing the support from both sides of the family, we moved forward. I was told at the time that her parents signed off for them to get a marriage license."

[temporal1]

My point is that while I suspect that neither of our churches would permit its ministry to marry non members, except in exceptional circumstances, the state basically shares in any blame for this situation. It s likely they convinced a judge this was ok.

While this minister was clearly unwise, the state was equally unwise.

I would presume the state followed the relevant laws regarding marriage.

Whilst in this case the marriage seems unwise to me (regardless of age), I would hesitate to say my grandparents’ marriage at 16 & 18 was unwise, my wife’s parents at 17 & 18, and so forth. I find it particularly odd to take a position that marriages at 16 or 17 are somehow bad

when all manner of fornication, cohabitation, childbearing out of wedlock, etc between a 16 and 18 year are entirely legal. I would work on changing the latter laws first.

P.201 bunny trails
https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.ph ... start=2000

[JohnH]

At issue here is that it doesn't seem very pertinent to the broader topic of problems with abuse in Anabaptist circles. There are lots of people entering marriages, cohabatation situations, etc. that are unwise, but that's not exactly my business and none of us are in charge of that. Our sphere of influence is limited to deciding what churches are marriages will officiate, and as far as I know most of us are in churches that would never have had a situation of marrying two non members, much less a bizarre May-December relationship.

Trudy normally does stay away from unfounded allegations; she would do herself well to avoid irrelevant details like this, including dragging someone like Mr. Raber through the mud for this (which is mostly her minions who do so, not her herself, at least from what I could tell). There are plenty of wrongdoers who need dragged through the mud that it would be good to endeavour to avoid dragging the innocent.

Overall, here's what is not helpful:

- Calling non-Amish people "Amish" as if it's some kind of ethnic designator because someone's grandfather was Amish
- Then finding such a person who has committed some heinous crime
- Then extending that to "Amish people commit lots of terrible crimes"
- Finally, "the Amish church should be dismantled", as if getting rid of the Amish church will somehow change the behaviour of non-Amish people.

It's a rather gross form of ethnic bigotry and it also has no grounding in facts.

[ken_sylvania]

Actually, the person officiating the marriage was drug into the conversation way back on page 14 by Anndet92. Amos Raber has expressed deep regret for officiating that marriage and he did so without knowing all the facts. Nevertheless, he has been thrown under the bus by TM and some (not all) of her followers. I believe she will have enough integrity to take the FB post about Amos Rabor down.

So... are you saying Amos Raber agrees with Trudy that he did the wrong thing by officiating that marriage?

Amos Raber's response to him officiating the marriage:

"You are right. I married them and regret it deeply.

As soon as I was made aware of the truth and the allegations, I confronted Chris Allen and the families and told them I would’ve never married them had I known before. I have not and will not cover for a perpetrator.

As of the gap/age difference – I do regret that. I was hesitant at the time, but upon seeing the support from both sides of the family, we moved forward. I was told at the time that her parents signed off for them to get a marriage license."

Exactly.

[anndet92]

So... are you saying Amos Raber agrees with Trudy that he did the wrong thing by officiating that marriage?

Amos Raber's response to him officiating the marriage:

"You are right. I married them and regret it deeply.

As soon as I was made aware of the truth and the allegations, I confronted Chris Allen and the families and told them I would’ve never married them had I known before. I have not and will not cover for a perpetrator.

As of the gap/age difference – I do regret that. I was hesitant at the time, but upon seeing the support from both sides of the family, we moved forward. I was told at the time that her parents signed off for them to get a marriage license."

Exactly.

I’m grateful for Amos Raber’s humble honesty in his statement.

I wish Steve Stutzman and other leaders took note.

[temporal1]

Amos Raber's response to him officiating the marriage:

"You are right. I married them and regret it deeply.

As soon as I was made aware of the truth and the allegations, I confronted Chris Allen and the families and told them I would’ve never married them had I known before. I have not and will not cover for a perpetrator.

As of the gap/age difference – I do regret that. I was hesitant at the time, but upon seeing the support from both sides of the family, we moved forward. I was told at the time that her parents signed off for them to get a marriage license."

Exactly.

I’m grateful for Amos Raber’s humble honesty in his statement.

I wish Steve Stutzman and other leaders took note.

Unfortunately, what is right and good, what is of authentic peace, authentic humility, receives little attention.
That seems to be a failure of the human condition. In a universal way.

In this case, Amos Raber is leading. i’m sure he’s in pain with a heavy heart.

[Jazman]

There are two separate cases that involve Steve Stutzman that Trudy has given visibility two. One is a case that has been or is being investigated by CPS. The other is Leroy Miller, the lead pastor at the church where Steve Stutzman is an overseer. Leroy Miller spent time in prison 20 years ago for a sex-related crime, has minimized this, had power over young people allegedly holding young girls in his lap, "casting out demons" of sex abuse victims that was traumatizing. I could go on. Trudy published information from the court system that laid out the facts in such a way that Leroy resigned as lead pastor. When people knew the facts, his pastoral ministry was no longer sustainable. Men like Leroy Miller are disqualified from ministry, and it should not even be a question. I wish it were not necessary for Trudy to obtain this information and publicize it for Leroy to resign. I wish there were another way, yet here we are.

(Late to the discussion here but..)

There is a way...imo; imperfect because it's human but possibly better than the entrepreneurial pastor/little initial splinter gathering fad that runs like a torrent through all of low-church american protestantism... (including many different levels of plain Menno/Anabaptist culture as well... except maybe Old Order?)
In my opinion, this would mitigate the mayhem:Laity need to expect and demand of any person who feels 'called' to levels of leadership like pastor - to go through the kinds of trainings, internships and vetting that is found in large and long standing denominational structures/institutions...
Laity also needs to expect and demand older ages in top leadership positions rather than the current fad of younger ages (ie young men). Every young man feeling such callings should start at the bottom and maybe when they're in their 40's/50's/60's they get to be 'pastor' - or- have gone through some serious study and internships under older leaders.

Just a thought.

[JohnH]

In my opinion, this would mitigate the mayhem:Laity need to expect and demand of any person who feels 'called' to levels of leadership like pastor - to go through the kinds of trainings, internships and vetting that is found in large and long standing denominational structures/institutions...

None of that seemed to help the Catholic church at all. The Catholic church invented the university and the seminary, yet they have had well-documented problems with clergy engaging in abuse.

In any case, plain Anabaptists categorically rejected the seminaries. If they do adopt what you're saying, then they aren't plain anymore.

Of course, non-plain Anabaptists have and had seminaries. So it would seem we could look at a setting like LMC or broader MC USA, yet we also find allegations that abuse exists there, too.

Laity also needs to expect and demand older ages in top leadership positions rather than the current fad of younger ages (ie young men).

Why? We need to raise up younger cohorts of people. We have a problem in society already of the elderly not letting go of the reigns and training up younger people.

Every young man feeling such callings should start at the bottom and maybe when they're in their 40's/50's/60's they get to be 'pastor' - or- have gone through some serious study and internships under older leaders.

Just a thought.

Well, in plain circles, leaders are generally ordained from the congregation; they aren't just people who select themselves and decide they need to be pastors. But, as you pointed out:

the entrepreneurial pastor/little initial splinter gathering fad that runs like a torrent through all of low-church american protestantism... (including many different levels of plain Menno/Anabaptist culture as well... except maybe Old Order?)

This problem seems to happen when someone wants to be a "leader" but isn't orained by the plain church they are in. They go off, start their own things, and try to get people to follow them. Steve Stutzman is an excellent example of that. In addition to trying to be a pastor, they often start all kinds of parachurch institutions (like Strait Paths) that, conveniently, don't have oversight from a congregation or denomination.

I am not arguing against institutions, but am arguing in favour of the supremacy of the local congregation, followed by a collection of churches (i.e. a "denomination") as an institution.

[anndet92]

I don’t particularly care for the way ordinations are done either; however, I’m also not keen on someone deciding they want to be pastor.

There has to be a way we can hold leaders accountable, no matter how they get into leadership.

It’s not an age-group issue, imo. There are good leaders in their 60s AND 30s and every age in between. But there needs to be accountability. Leaders need held to higher standard - otherwise, we have wolves running the sheepfold.

I understand why exposure of abuse on social media is looked down on; however, it is a way to provide truth to people would otherwise would not know someone isn’t safe. When abuse occurs at the level of leadership, and when corrupt leaders surround themselves with “yes men”, social media is a tool to hold them accountable.

I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Jesus said that what is done in secret will be shouted from the rooftops.

The “shouting” isn’t the problem - the evil done in secret is.