Watercolor painting and artistic expression

[barnhart]

It's possible for even the truly elite to set aside elitist attitudes at times. Another director and composer (I assume it's not the same one) was asked by an elderly man in the choir, a well-known songleader in his community, whether it would be possible to include a bit of Gaither music in the program at some point rather than all highbrow compositions. The director allowed it might not be entirely out of the question. The next year he had us sing a rather complex yet down-to-earth arrangement of a classic by -- not Gaither, but even more surprisingly, Albert E. Brumley.

That sounds like a Lloyd Kauffman story.

[HondurasKeiser]

Some might say Picasso impressively captures the fragmented society that modernity brought. In a sort of jarring way, the art illustrates the break down of community, beauty, and civility. And captures the impact of tech on the world. And in that sense, while he is a modern artist, it hints at post-modernity.

I think that’s right but I think the problem is that his “diagnosis” also has the effect of reinforcing the anomie that he’s depicting. It’s a kind of catch-22 with those modern and postmodern artists. I appreciate the depiction of atomization insofar as it gives us a tangible example. The true meaning of the piece though is untranslatable and is up to each individual to decide. This both reinforces the anomie and defeats the project.

[JayP]

It is going to be hard to express this properly. I mean no disrespect when I said there are subjects that I am not sure some Anabaptists can discuss fruitfully. It is simply the lack of knowledge or reasonable reference point. It was clear some of the comments on Guernica showed folks did not know it’s history (The Condor bombing in the Civil War), or the significance of the specific animals,etc. that is ok, there is a lot each of us lacks from a knowledge standpoint. I have known a number of OOA well in my lifetime including being at services. I know much more than the average American. Yet I am not sure my ability to analyze many aspects of their life is very developed.

Hence my point about Anabaptists and Art. Ok, sure, the more liberal you get the more you might know. But a lot of them simply do not have the background references. Especially the closer you get to groups that reject it such that your references are even weaker.

This is significant because it is not just Art. It is not a judgment, it’s simply an observation.

This mAterializes in so many other ways. It does not suggest better or worse, smarter or dumber, just the reality that references point matters

I will again repeat the story I have used so many times. Where my son answered the interpretive question about a short story “What do you th8nk this character did later?” Since he had the knowledge of the complete work he gave an answer. The teacher unfamiliar with the full work said No, that is unlikely, I th8nk he did this. My son is “wrong” even though he is factually correct. We need to know when we lack the key reference points

[ohio jones]

It's possible for even the truly elite to set aside elitist attitudes at times. Another director and composer (I assume it's not the same one) was asked by an elderly man in the choir, a well-known songleader in his community, whether it would be possible to include a bit of Gaither music in the program at some point rather than all highbrow compositions. The director allowed it might not be entirely out of the question. The next year he had us sing a rather complex yet down-to-earth arrangement of a classic by -- not Gaither, but even more surprisingly, Albert E. Brumley.

That sounds like a Lloyd Kauffman story.

You are correct.

[barnhart]

Some might say Picasso impressively captures the fragmented society that modernity brought. In a sort of jarring way, the art illustrates the break down of community, beauty, and civility. And captures the impact of tech on the world. And in that sense, while he is a modern artist, it hints at post-modernity.

I think that’s right but I think the problem is that his “diagnosis” also has the effect of reinforcing the anomie that he’s depicting. It’s a kind of catch-22 with those modern and postmodern artists. I appreciate the depiction of atomization insofar as it gives us a tangible example. The true meaning of the piece though is untranslatable and is up to each individual to decide. This both reinforces the anomie and defeats the project.

Which is also a message.

[joshuabgood]

IT Is going to be hard to express this properly. I mean no disrespect when I said there are subjects that I am not sure some Anabaptists can discuss fruitfully. It is simply the lack of knowledge or reasonable reference point. It was clear some of the comments on Guernica showed folks did not know it’s history (The Condor bombing in the Civil War), or the significance of the specific animals,etc. that is ok, there is a lot each of us lacks from a knowledge standpoint. I have known a number of OOA well in my lifetime including being at services. I know much more than the average American. Yet I am not sure my ability to analyze many aspects of their life is very developed.

Hence my point about Anabaptists and Art. Ok, sure, the more liberal you get the more you might know. But a lot of them simply do not have the background references. Especially the closer you get to groups that reject it such that your references are even weaker.

You aren't wrong...which I think gives credibility to the point of whoever it was that the op was calling into question regarding the point that CAs have a dim view, or at least are skeptical, of art or whatever.

[Judas Maccabeus]

If you want a view of how art, and particularly modern art reflects the culture, a read of Rookmaker's "Modern Art and the Death of Culture" could provide a bit of perspective.

[barnhart]

If you want a view of how art, and particularly modern art reflects the culture, a read of Rookmaker's "Modern Art and the Death of Culture" could provide a bit of perspective.

Looks interesting. Have you read Schaeffer's "How shall we then live?", if so how do the two compare?

A while back I re-read this book and started a thread about his ideas around art and culture, https://forum.mennonet.com/viewtopic.ph ... 2&start=20
Here is part of my summary at the time.

I had a similar feeling hearing Keith Green pivot from beautiful songs lifting up Jesus straight to preaching "some of you alive now will be imprisoned for your faith" and other " they are coming for you" arguments. Similarly I enjoyed Dreher's Benedict Option and agreed with nearly every practical suggestion while being horrified at his long term goal of eventually seizing control of empire, for good of course.

In my theology the powers of this world are real and active but they do not cause fear for they are already defeated. I wonder if a weakness of Protestant theology is to spiritualize the victory of Jesus to the point that the struggles of this world become ours to bear. This stands in contrast to Jesus' message, "Fear not little flock, it is the father's will to give to you the kingdom!"

The Anabaptist conviction that the mode of advancement for the kingdom of Jesus is submission, not revolution or control shades everything about living in the world, including art. In my view we are more free than Schaeffer (and company) to either ignore art and create our own or take the time to understand it and learn from it. Either way the thing we are not bound to is controlling it.

[JohnH]

The simple fact is that part of plain Anabaptism means, well, a plain lifestyle, which means rejecting things like fancy art.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with deciding not to be a plain Anabaptists, as long as one remains a sincere Christian who follows Christ to the fu fullest and submits to the teachings in the scriptures. But if one wants to pursue fancy art, one will have to figure out a way to do so outside of the plain world.

Strangely, many people don't want to do this. The "why" often baffles me. There are many LMC communities and churches that seem like reasonable congregations to be a part of where there would be no restrictions and would even be encouragement to pursue the arts. So why do people try to stay in a plain setting, and then continuously try to make it less plain?

[Ernie]

The simple fact is that part of plain Anabaptism means, well, a plain lifestyle, which means rejecting things like fancy art.

Are you including quilts and fraktur in this or are you not defining them as fancy art?