Church attendance by offenders

[R7ehr]

I affirm this discussion. I think we often confuse forgiveness with consequences. The former is good and right but some consequences always remain even after the best efforts at restoration, especially in cases of sex related power abuse. To deny this is to put the burden back on the victim.

I wonder if there is any connection with Christian people conflating forgiveness with a removal of consequences, and the Biblical way that God’s forgiveness of sin removes the eternal consequences of hell.

[Neto]

Some months ago I had a brief visit with a young (now married) Amish woman who was molested by her grandfather. (I have known her through work relationships for many years.) We were talking about how this horrible thing had changed her own father into a caring and engaged father to his children, telling them that he loves them, and praying real prayers out of his own heart with them. (He told me about this himself several years ago, saying that his parents had never told him that they loved him, and that he didn't know that he could 'make up' his own prayers. Everything was out of the Amish prayer book. He told me how even his young children were embarrassed when he first started expressing his love for them. The older ones thought he had lost his mind.) And, while I don't think I mentioned this directly, but she knew what I was getting at - brought him into a deep relationship with God, through Jesus.

And what was her main comment? "He (her grandfather) is forgiven."!!! I personally do not think any one should ask for forgiveness of those they have wronged. They should just openly confess, repent, to their former victim. Forgiveness is a gift the person who was wronged can offer, but it should never be requested. That makes it all about the perpetrator feeling better about themselves. If they have genuinely repented, they will be more concerned for their former victim than about themselves.

As far as the question posed in this thread, God showed Peter that he should not call unclean what God has declared clean. How does that impact the answer we should give? (I'm reminded of a young woman I conversed with recently - she had lived an immoral life, but had repented, and is now striving to live a pure life, including in respect to dating practices. Some people have called her 'unclean', or 'contaminated'. I think that is a travesty. We should be assuring our Christian brothers and sisters that God's forgiveness is thorough and complete, not reminding them that they are 'damaged goods'.

I am moved to tears every time I think about how God can use such a horrible thing to bring a man to Himself, and transform an entire family.

[mike]

Some months ago I had a brief visit with a young (now married) Amish woman who was molested by her grandfather. (I have known her through work relationships for many years.) We were talking about how this horrible thing had changed her own father into a caring and engaged father to his children, telling them that he loves them, and praying real prayers out of his own heart with them. (He told me about this himself several years ago, saying that his parents had never told him that they loved him, and that he didn't know that he could 'make up' his own prayers. Everything was out of the Amish prayer book. He told me how even his young children were embarrassed when he first started expressing his love for them. The older ones thought he had lost his mind.) And, while I don't think I mentioned this directly, but she knew what I was getting at - brought him into a deep relationship with God, through Jesus.

And what was her main comment? "He (her grandfather) is forgiven."!!! I personally do not think any one should ask for forgiveness of those they have wronged. They should just openly confess, repent, to their former victim. Forgiveness is a gift the person who was wronged can offer, but it should never be requested. That makes it all about the perpetrator feeling better about themselves. If they have genuinely repented, they will be more concerned for their former victim than about themselves.

As far as the question posed in this thread, God showed Peter that he should not call unclean what God has declared clean. How does that impact the answer we should give? (I'm reminded of a young woman I conversed with recently - she had lived an immoral life, but had repented, and is now striving to live a pure life, including in respect to dating practices. Some people have called her 'unclean', or 'contaminated'. I think that is a travesty. We should be assuring our Christian brothers and sisters that God's forgiveness is thorough and complete, not reminding them that they are 'damaged goods'.

I am moved to tears every time I think about how God can use such a horrible thing to bring a man to Himself, and transform an entire family.

This is all very inspiring, and I'm glad to hear it, but I still agree with those who think there should be restrictions or some sort of plan for offenders attending church where victims or vulnerable persons might be present. The two considerations that matter most to me would be the law and the wishes and comfort of the victims and their family. Offenders may need to move or attend elsewhere. Their lives may be upended by their sin or crime, this is the consequences of their actions. Victims or vulnerable persons must also be forgiven for feeling like they cannot deal with that person being in their presence, even if it is legal, even when their feelings affect innocent people like the family of the offender. Church leaders need to consider all these things.

[temporal1]

Some months ago I had a brief visit with a young (now married) Amish woman who was molested by her grandfather. (I have known her through work relationships for many years.) We were talking about how this horrible thing had changed her own father into a caring and engaged father to his children, telling them that he loves them, and praying real prayers out of his own heart with them. (He told me about this himself several years ago, saying that his parents had never told him that they loved him, and that he didn't know that he could 'make up' his own prayers. Everything was out of the Amish prayer book. He told me how even his young children were embarrassed when he first started expressing his love for them. The older ones thought he had lost his mind.) And, while I don't think I mentioned this directly, but she knew what I was getting at - brought him into a deep relationship with God, through Jesus.

And what was her main comment? "He (her grandfather) is forgiven."!!! I personally do not think any one should ask for forgiveness of those they have wronged. They should just openly confess, repent, to their former victim. Forgiveness is a gift the person who was wronged can offer, but it should never be requested. That makes it all about the perpetrator feeling better about themselves.

If they have genuinely repented, they will be more concerned for their former victim than about themselves.

As far as the question posed in this thread, God showed Peter that he should not call unclean what God has declared clean. How does that impact the answer we should give? (I'm reminded of a young woman I conversed with recently - she had lived an immoral life, but had repented, and is now striving to live a pure life, including in respect to dating practices. Some people have called her 'unclean', or 'contaminated'. I think that is a travesty. We should be assuring our Christian brothers and sisters that God's forgiveness is thorough and complete, not reminding them that they are 'damaged goods'.

I am moved to tears every time I think about how God can use such a horrible thing to bring a man to Himself, and transform an entire family.

i appreciate this very much.
an important key is what genuine repentance does to the human condition.
sincere repentance, not empty talk, which for some, seems second nature. example, J Mast.

they will accept and respect consequences.

as well, carnal crimes that directly harm vulnerable, defenseless victims, for instance, theft versus CSA, deserve different response.

[barnhart]

I affirm this discussion. I think we often confuse forgiveness with consequences. The former is good and right but some consequences always remain even after the best efforts at restoration, especially in cases of sex related power abuse. To deny this is to put the burden back on the victim.

I wonder if there is any connection with Christian people conflating forgiveness with a removal of consequences, and the Biblical way that God’s forgiveness of sin removes the eternal consequences of hell.

I don't know. Maybe. If theology becomes gnostic enough sin is only a metaphysical problem with a strictly metaphysical, next world solution. It's possible the material world consequences get little consideraition under that system.

[JoyE]

God's forgiveness is different from ours. As mentioned, God's forgiveness removes the eternal consequences of our sin. We can't do that through forgiveness, and I think our forgiving is mostly to free us from the chains of anger and bitterness.

So far as limits for a registered offender in the church, there are legal requirements to follow, which the church should be very careful to observe. And I believe he should be directly accountable to more than one personal mentor within the church.

[Neto]

Some months ago I had a brief visit with a young (now married) Amish woman who was molested by her grandfather. (I have known her through work relationships for many years.) We were talking about how this horrible thing had changed her own father into a caring and engaged father to his children, telling them that he loves them, and praying real prayers out of his own heart with them. (He told me about this himself several years ago, saying that his parents had never told him that they loved him, and that he didn't know that he could 'make up' his own prayers. Everything was out of the Amish prayer book. He told me how even his young children were embarrassed when he first started expressing his love for them. The older ones thought he had lost his mind.) And, while I don't think I mentioned this directly, but she knew what I was getting at - brought him into a deep relationship with God, through Jesus.

And what was her main comment? "He (her grandfather) is forgiven."!!! I personally do not think any one should ask for forgiveness of those they have wronged. They should just openly confess, repent, to their former victim. Forgiveness is a gift the person who was wronged can offer, but it should never be requested. That makes it all about the perpetrator feeling better about themselves. If they have genuinely repented, they will be more concerned for their former victim than about themselves.

As far as the question posed in this thread, God showed Peter that he should not call unclean what God has declared clean. How does that impact the answer we should give? (I'm reminded of a young woman I conversed with recently - she had lived an immoral life, but had repented, and is now striving to live a pure life, including in respect to dating practices. Some people have called her 'unclean', or 'contaminated'. I think that is a travesty. We should be assuring our Christian brothers and sisters that God's forgiveness is thorough and complete, not reminding them that they are 'damaged goods'.

I am moved to tears every time I think about how God can use such a horrible thing to bring a man to Himself, and transform an entire family.

This is all very inspiring, and I'm glad to hear it, but I still agree with those who think there should be restrictions or some sort of plan for offenders attending church where victims or vulnerable persons might be present. The two considerations that matter most to me would be the law and the wishes and comfort of the victims and their family. Offenders may need to move or attend elsewhere. Their lives may be upended by their sin or crime, this is the consequences of their actions. Victims or vulnerable persons must also be forgiven for feeling like they cannot deal with that person being in their presence, even if it is legal, even when their feelings affect innocent people like the family of the offender. Church leaders need to consider all these things.

Certainly, the secular law will have something to decide, and those directives must be followed in such cases. Maybe I was responding to something no one was saying.

(On another Mennonite forum, where I was a member before MennoDiscuss started, a Mennonite who worked with offenders as an agent of the authorities basically said that some people cannot be 'redeemed'. While I understand that it appears that some types of offenders appear to be beyond ever being genuinely changed, I will also say that ALL of us are, in ourselves, incapable of ever changing. We do not have the resources in and of ourselves to live in holiness. ALL of the power to do so comes from Jesus. For a bit more information, he was talking about narcissists, and he had reportedly worked with many of them. I haven't.)

[the-real-steve]

Two situations that I remember:

First guy was a porn addict. He went out of his way after the service to shake the young ladies' hands. Sat in the back during the service and would "check out" the mothers when they took babies back to the nursery. Just creepy all the way around.

If I remember right, we withheld the holy kiss, he wasn't allowed communion, and he had to sit up front right behind the ministry. To my knowledge, he never got out from under that discipline.

Just a real creepy dude.

[temporal1]

Two situations that I remember:

First guy was a porn addict. He went out of his way after the service to shake the young ladies' hands. Sat in the back during the service and would "check out" the mothers when they took babies back to the nursery. Just creepy all the way around.

If I remember right, we withheld the holy kiss, he wasn't allowed communion, and he had to sit up front right behind the ministry. To my knowledge, he never got out from under that discipline.

Just a real creepy dude.

The worst are ones who “look and sound great”. They often have many victims.

We had one in our church, he was nice looking, married with a beautiful young family, active in church.
Well liked. Our teen son did some projects with him. No questions asked.

When he was charged with CSA, young girls, maybe his daughters/their friends? - our son was devasted.
He had NO indication.

The pain caused in the family and beyond was epic. i’ve seen his name on the county offenders website.
So many years have passed. The shock doesn’t go away.

i’ve learned, i can be fooled.
i try to factor for that, to be aware, to accept my best instincts can be wrong.

[mike]

i’ve learned, i can be fooled.
i try to factor for that, to be aware, to accept my best instincts can be wrong.

We are not God. There’s a current situation where we can hardly believe the allegations because we never even close saw anything untoward and the situation doesn’t fit any mold. But we’re not God and we could be wrong. We can’t be everywhere and see everything and we can’t beat ourselves up for that. We are human.