Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 10:22 am
Sculpture? I think most Plain Anabaptists are fine with this but not ok with spending exorbitant amounts of time and resources for it.
Historically, I think Anabaptists have viewed art as something to add a bit of spice and color to life, but not something that should be made and end in itself.
Theatre? Well... as mentioned earlier... playing someone you are not is something Plain Anabaptists have not seen as virtuous. (Plus all the other things that normally go along with theatre.) This greatly reduces the genres for theatre.
I would be interested in reviewing a proposal for how Plain Anabaptists could utilize theatre art without compromising N.T. principles.
I think I disagree that most Plain Anabaptists are OK with much in the way of sculpture, except that most of them are quite OK with children doing it in their play. Wouldn't most of us think that graven images are still unsuitable for God's people?
The objection to theatre dates back to the early days of the church. Why would we even want to try to figure out a way to make the use of the devil's tools acceptable?
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 11:14 am
I think the Plain Anabaptist motif is...
"All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful, but not all things edify."
Which is why most Plain Anabaptists can marvel at a beautiful piece of architecture or a luxury kitchen or an orchestra, but conclude that producing such things is not how Christians should spend their time.
Transitional Anabaptists, of course, push the envelope of what has normally been considered expedient and edifying, but they are only a minority and history tells us where most of that will end up.
Have you been to Holmes County? There is either a whole bunch of, as you say, transitional Anabaptist or the culture as a whole isn't just window shopping niceties any more.
Ernie wrote:
If a work of art does not abide by scriptural principles, I don't think it is an honor to Jesus.
I fully understand what you are reaching for here but I also have questions. Some experiences in life are not good or positive, how much room do you have for art expression of those things. For example a branch of hip-hop seems to be mourning the deaths of friends, often at the hands of police and expressing the anger that comes processing that. I don't like hearing it but I do read the Psalms where David blesses the men who kill the infants of his enemies by bashing their heads against stones. There is something false and artificial about cutting out everything negative and only allowing the positive.
Good questions... But I've not thought about this enough to comment much. It seems like there is a time and place for anything that is not inherently sinful, as long as it pushes a person toward their Creator.
1 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 11:14 am
I think the Plain Anabaptist motif is...
"All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful, but not all things edify."
Which is why most Plain Anabaptists can marvel at a beautiful piece of architecture or a luxury kitchen or an orchestra, but conclude that producing such things is not how Christians should spend their time.
Transitional Anabaptists, of course, push the envelope of what has normally been considered expedient and edifying, but they are only a minority and history tells us where most of that will end up.
Have you been to Holmes County? There is either a whole bunch of, as you say, transitional Anabaptist or the culture as a whole isn't just window shopping niceties any more.
Nearly all of Holmes Co. is transitional now. (Most of the OOA adopted Internet in the home for example.)
Chris IN wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 9:46 am
Aren't there people among us who were given artistic talents? Why shouldn't they use those talents in the same way someone with a good singing voice uses theirs?
Biblicists would say, "Because the New Testament instructs us to worship God via singing and not with other art forms."
Historically Anabaptists have believed that people with good singing voices should blend theirs with everyone else in order to improve the singing of the group. It is not all that dissimilar from Hutterites pooling their resources so that the church community gets the benefit rather than the individual.
Most Plain Anabaptists like illustrations in their children's books and even in some adult books. Most Plain Anabaptists are fine with their people pursuing this as a career and doing a really good job at it.
Sculpture? I think most Plain Anabaptists are fine with this but not ok with spending exorbitant amounts of time and resources for it.
Historically, I think Anabaptists have viewed art as something to add a bit of spice and color to life, but not something that should be made and end in itself.
Theatre? Well... as mentioned earlier... playing someone you are not is something Plain Anabaptists have not seen as virtuous. (Plus all the other things that normally go along with theatre.) This greatly reduces the genres for theatre.
I would be interested in reviewing a proposal for how Plain Anabaptists could utilize theatre art without compromising N.T. principles.
Historically as you know Anabaptists have had a very dim view of "good singing" and preferred the unison "slow singing." Music camps as they now exist would have been much too close to Catholic music, with the parts, etc. (This connection, which I don't oppose, is evident in the latin names and genre/arrangements of the now CA music groups. For example the polyphonic Renaissance choral pieces, the oratorios, the new music produced which is also in that style - names like Lyrica Sacra, Canticle, Laudate, etc etc...)
joshuabgood wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 10:10 am
Ernie, as for the Shenandoah folks you mentioned, I am old enough (at 50 basically), and you probably as well, where music endeavors like that were really frowned on in the CA circles. And still are in the more ultra settings...I think. The concern/charge for decades was elitism combined with arguments that "good music" distracts from the message.
I think there have always been this sort of "high end" opportunities for Plain Anabaptists. Most notable are the J. D. Brunk days and the recent Shenandoah era. Our family has taken part in Shenandoah's weeklong program for three different years.
I'm friends with a number of the Shenandoah instructors and have spent hours with them discussing their observations about arts and Plain Anabaptists. They tell me that despite teaching (like what Julian is doing for the Hutterites), many musicians exit the Plain Anabaptist world because they think don't fit. Shenandoah music camp does give people a taste for something that they are not going to find in the rest of the Plain Anabaptist world.
The ones who stay don't necessarily feel like they fit either, but they are willing to put up with the "rejection" and the incongruities, because they see value in many of the other aspects of the culture.
Last edited by Ernie on Tue Jul 07, 2026 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
Ernie wrote: ↑Tue Jul 07, 2026 11:14 am
I think the Plain Anabaptist motif is...
"All things are lawful, but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful, but not all things edify."
Which is why most Plain Anabaptists can marvel at a beautiful piece of architecture or a luxury kitchen or an orchestra, but conclude that producing such things is not how Christians should spend their time.
Transitional Anabaptists, of course, push the envelope of what has normally been considered expedient and edifying, but they are only a minority and history tells us where most of that will end up.
Have you been to Holmes County? There is either a whole bunch of, as you say, transitional Anabaptist or the culture as a whole isn't just window shopping niceties any more.
What percentage of the Plain Anabaptists in Holmes County purposefully avoid luxury and still aim for a more simpler living standard?
Sometimes what makes the news does not reflect the silent demographic.
I attended a wedding in Holmes County about 8 years ago or so and happened to sit across the table from an Amish couple. Their desire for simplicity and not taking on the values of the world was just as solid as anywhere in the Plain Anabaptist world. I'm wondering what percentage still retain these values.
0 x
A wee little man can’t say, I’m sorry. A big man owns his mistakes and apologizes.
A wee little man trusts himself and his own discernment. A big man is humble enough to know that he needs the counsel and input of others.
A couple thoughts, so i won't quote a particular post.
We attended a church years ago where one of the men was a gifted singer. He was a participant in the Shenandoah music choir. He thought our church singing was terrible and wasn't quiet about it. It came off as prideful. But was it? It was about church singing, an approved craft.
Someone mentioned sculpture being like making graven images. How far will you take that thought? The Muslims stick with certain patterned designs to avoid figurative art.
What about chain saw carvings? What about basket weaving where they switch up the colors? They could just as well stick to one color and make them strictly serviceable.
A lot of plain women make greeting cards. I do notice many of them are of a similar design (if you know you know). Is it wrong to infuse a personal touch into such things?
Furniture making seems to get a pass for creative flare. Ditto for landscaping.
The transitional ones, would those be the ones with disposable income to stop at the coffee shops and such? Years ago that wasn't even a thing, nor would it have been prudent to spend money like that. (Some people "pride" themselves on a well made cup of coffee. Approved creativity?)
I am genuinely curious what the criteria is for approval and other things as less than diserable.
The objection to theatre dates back to the early days of the church. Why would we even want to try to figure out a way to make the use of the devil's tools acceptable?
Theatre is a way of telling a story. I have seen theatrical productions that left me inspired...and that really resonated. Among the best, though with mature themes to be sure, Les Mis.