JohnH wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2026 7:20 am
There is no rule you can’t call sin an “infestation”. Sounds like you have an extra-biblical rule about it.
First of all, that strikes me as a curious argument from someone who has argued in the past that our moral behavior today should have clear biblical support. For example, you have argued that Old Testament imperatives towards immigrants and just behavior by rulers don’t apply because they’re not in the New Testament.
Secondly, I just want to note that I’m noticing a shift in your language. You originally wrote:
It's utterly fascinating how you have objected to one of my biggest objections to Trump (the infestation of perverts like homosexuals in his cabinet); protesting that is "dehumanising". It isn't "dehumanising"; anyone could just choose not to engage in such perversions. I consider perverts in public office, church offices, etc. to be an infestation, because they are something that needs to be removed.
What I see happening in this thread is shifting from calling people an “infestation” to being a bit more precise that sin is the “infestation.” I do think that’s a significant shift.
I think the following has been established in this thread:
1) Scripture condemns sin with sometimes uncomfortablely harsh language.
2) However, Scripture does not use "infestation" or disease metaphors to describe groups of people. When Scripture uses metaphors like gangrene or leaven, it's to describe the spread of teachings and ideas.
Interestingly, there's a modern equivalent to this -- we describe memes or videos going “viral” over the Internet. “Viral” comes from the word “virus.” The word “meme” itself comes from Richard Dawkins who compared the spread of ideas or behavior throughout a society to biological evolution. Dawkins shortened the Greek word “mimēma” (imitated thing) to “meme” because it sounded like “gene.”
So while I wouldn’t use the word, I think you’re on more Scriptural ground when you talk about ideas or even sin. I don’t see a Scriptural basis for talking about people that way.
3) Jesus did use harsh language against the Pharisees, calling them “a brood of vipers.” Context matters here. Jesus wasn’t attacking a broad category of sinners, he was criticizing religious leaders who failed to live according to the obligations they imposed on others and used their religiosity for status.
Also important to note, that Jesus criticized the Pharisees in ways that recognized their agency. As Ohio Jones pointed out, there’s a difference between talking “to” a group of people and “about” a group of people.
(I guess this means you can biblically call your pastor a “whitewashed headstone.”)
Calling people an “infestation,” however, strips them of that moral agency. The “problem” with these people isn’t just that they’ve made objectionable moral choices, the metaphor suggests the people themselves are like vermin that have to be removed.
4) Therefore, I don’t think calling people an “infestation” is compatible with the metaphor of Jesus as a physician. One normally doesn’t call a doctor during an infestation, you call an exterminator since termites or rats are incapable of healing or repentance. I think these metaphors are pulling in opposite directions.
So I don’t think that it’s a question about whether or not there’s a rule in the Bible prohibiting calling sin an “infestation.” Rather, I argue that there’s no Scriptural support for calling people you believe are committing grievous sins an “infestation.”
You originally wrote:
It's utterly fascinating how you have objected to one of my biggest objections to Trump (the infestation of perverts like homosexuals in his cabinet); protesting that is "dehumanising". It isn't "dehumanising"; anyone could just choose not to engage in such perversions. I consider perverts in public office, church offices, etc. to be an infestation, because they are something that needs to be removed.
That’s not calling sin an infestation. It’s calling people an infestation.
You also claimed:
It is perfectly fine to speak about it with the same language used in the Bible.
I don’t think the Bible ever calls a group of people an “infestation.” I don’t think it’s the “same language.” The existence of harsh language in the Bible is not justification for all harsh language.
To me it seems that you are highly invested in this metaphor. I understand that you feel the word encompasses the systemic nature of sin. I think there’s plenty of systematic, prophetic language in the Bible that you don’t have to use that particular metaphor.
The problem with using the “infestation” metaphor to talk about people (not sin, not ideas, not false teaching) is that in our context it’s closely associated with persecution, genocide and oppression. I’m not sure why someone would be okay with using language that evoked that kind of association.
I suppose that metaphor works if I wanted to denounce sinners in the harshest terms possible.
But it’s not effective language if my intention is to persuade, convert and get sinners to repent. If someone told me that I was a pervert who spread disease and parasites, then frankly, there’s nothing more they could say to me that I would listen to, regardless of how true it was.
If the goal is to persuade people to your view, then calling others an “infestation” and doubling down on that language after getting called out about it is a remarkably ineffective method to change anyone’s mind.
Jesus did call people to repentance, but it also matters how he called people to repentance. He did call the religious elite “a brood of vipers.” That’s language directed to those who already have faith. This is language directed to people who already considered themselves righteous and faithful.
His call to repentance to the tax collectors and prostitutes looked very different.
I think the continued use of the “infestation” metaphor runs the risk that you will be associated with beliefs and groups you don’t want to be associated with. Even if you don’t agree with me on biblical or moral grounds, I don’t think this is good strategy.
"Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless."
-- Isaiah 10:1-2
