Interested in learning about Holdemans

[ohio jones]

Finally, I would like some recognition of how many seekers get referred to the Holdemans the second they meet a divorced person. The Charity & Beachy affiliates in my area consistently do this.

Must be a local thing. The Charity & Beachy affiliates in my area do not have a practice of referring divorced persons to the Holdemans.

You probably don't have a Holdeman affiliate nearby. I think they closed up shop 70+ years ago.

That's certainly part of the reason.

[mike]

I believe in pointing out where I believe the Holdemans are wrong, and it is up to God to judge as he sees best. I have not said they are an evil institution. I believe they are a badly mistaken group of people according to the Christian-Anabaptist worldview I adhere to. Many people are mistaken. I may be mistaken. It is God's position to judge who is "evil," not mine.

mike, a while ago you stated that Holdemans require anyone who is married and joins their group to get divorced because the church doesn't recognise their marriage. You and I spoke about it privately and you agreed to correct the record, but I think with an error that egregious you should probably stand down that you don't know much about actual Holdeman beliefs on marriage at all, and it would be productive to dialogue about them and reach a consensus about what they actually are.

I think it's very, very important to speak truth about other plain groups other than our own.

I may be mistaken, as I said, and I did correct the record and will if I find good information to the contrary of what I said.

What exactly, for Holdeman Mennonites, breaks the marriage bond? You keep saying that I am speaking inaccurately, slandering and promoting falsehood. So answer this please.

[JohnH]

What exactly, for Holdeman Mennonites, breaks the marriage bond? You keep saying that I am speaking inaccurately, slandering and promoting falsehood. So answer this please.

What Jesus says breaks the marriage bond. (I am, obviously, speaking as a Holdeman here.)

The most obvious being sexual immorality, since Jesus spoke of that when he taught us not to divorce in the same way that Moses taught us we could.

Here are things Holdemans don't believe, yet people keep repeating that they do:

- That any divorce breaks the marriage bond in God's eyes.
- That Holdemans don't recognise marriages outside of their church at all.
- That if you join the Holdeman church, you either have to remarry your current wife or you can just go marry someone else since they don't recognise outside marriages.
- That Holdemans will accept anyone who is divorced and remarried (or allow a member to divorce and remarry).

If someone is divorced & remarried and wants to join the church, it is a rather long process to ensure that the rest of the church feels their situation is not something that in God's eyes needs to be reconciled with a former spouse, and likewise also they need to show an attitude of forgiveness and a heart towards reconciliation (whatever form that might take) with those who have wronged us in the past.

Likewise, if a divorced person joins, and then later wants to be married, it is a process to ensure the option of reconciling with their former spouse isn't a possibility and that the marriage bond is truly broken.

Our church also deals with the complex situation of polygamist people who become Christians and join the church and how to handle that in a way that follows what we feel the Bible teaches.

[Soloist]

Elaborate on if your spouse leaves the church please.

[JohnH]

Elaborate on if your spouse leaves the church please.

What would that have to do with anything?

It certainly isn't a grounds for divorce.

[mike]

What exactly, for Holdeman Mennonites, breaks the marriage bond? You keep saying that I am speaking inaccurately, slandering and promoting falsehood. So answer this please.

What Jesus says breaks the marriage bond. (I am, obviously, speaking as a Holdeman here.)

The most obvious being sexual immorality, since Jesus spoke of that when he taught us not to divorce in the same way that Moses taught us we could.

So, Holdemans believe that sexual immorality breaks the marriage bond. This is indeed a fundamentally different view from what most conservative Anabaptists believe, and what I believe, and what I believe the Bible teaches.

However, it is different from saying that Holdemans believe divorce breaks the marriage bond, so I would like to correct then what I said earlier, to the following:

Holdemans, contrary to most other contemporary conservative Anabaptists, hold the fundamentally different belief that sexual immorality breaks the marriage bond. This view is aligned with that of many other Christian churches, and makes them appealing to seekers in certain situations, but in addition to the ‘one true church’ view, the Holdeman view of marriage ensures they will remain separate and out of fellowship with the vast majority of conservative Anabaptism for the foreseeable future.

As to the terms I used such as 'most' and 'vast majority,' I will let you have the last word as I am not interested in spending time here defining just who all must be considered conservative Anabaptists in this context.

[Soloist]

Elaborate on if your spouse leaves the church please.

What would that have to do with anything?

It certainly isn't a grounds for divorce.

I’ve been told otherwise by Holdeman.

[JohnH]

So, Holdemans believe that sexual immorality breaks the marriage bond. This is indeed a fundamentally different view from what most conservative Anabaptists believe, and what I believe, and what I believe the Bible teaches.

Yes. But that's different from teaching that "divorce breaks the marriage bond". Lots of divorces have done no such thing.

However, it is different from saying that Holdemans believe divorce breaks the marriage bond, so I would like to correct then what I said earlier, to the following:

Holdemans, contrary to most other contemporary conservative Anabaptists,

"Most" is doing heavy lifting here. Are you counting Apostolic Christians and Russian Mennonite-background groups as conservative Anabaptists? (And are you counting Old Orders as well?)

hold the fundamentally different belief that sexual immorality breaks the marriage bond. This view is aligned with that of many other Christian churches,

Not aligned. Most other Christian churches simply accept any divorce breaks the marriage bond, regardless of the reasons why. Quite different from the Holdeman (and AC) position.

and makes them appealing to seekers in certain situations, but in addition to the ‘one true church’ view, the Holdeman view of marriage ensures they will remain separate and out of fellowship with the vast majority of conservative Anabaptism for the foreseeable future.

Again, I think that's a silly thing to put in there, because it obviously isn't an impediment to fellowship with Apostolic Christians, Old Colonists, and so on. You could, however, describe that there are two different schools of thought of plain Anabaptists, but then you'd need a further nuance about exactly just what the fellowship lines are.

As to the terms I used such as 'most' and 'vast majority,' I will let you have the last word as I am not interested in spending time here defining just who all must be considered conservative Anabaptists in this context.

I think it's important to speak truth. What is a conservative Anabaptist and who they are isn't some giant mystery. If you want to exclude large populations of conservative Anabaptists, you can go right ahead and do that, but wouldn't it just me more fruitful to speak about your own constituency and those you are actually in fellowship with?

[JohnH]

I’ve been told otherwise by Holdeman.

You were told wrong. If my wife lost her faith and left the church, I would certainly have zero grounds to run off and marry someone else.

[ohio jones]

As to the terms I used such as 'most' and 'vast majority,' I will let you have the last word as I am not interested in spending time here defining just who all must be considered conservative Anabaptists in this context.

I think it's important to speak truth. What is a conservative Anabaptist and who they are isn't some giant mystery. If you want to exclude large populations of conservative Anabaptists, you can go right ahead and do that, but wouldn't it just me more fruitful to speak about your own constituency and those you are actually in fellowship with?

Maybe "conservative Mennonites" would be more precise, as that would exclude Amish, Apostolic, and some of the others mentioned without also excluding Holdemans.